What are the CB's inputs and deliverables at Stage 1?

[Helmut Jilling]

The link Sidney posted in post #8 outlines the items that CB's review at Stage 1. Most CB's will use some version based on that list.

The deliverables are also pretty clear. Stage 1 is sometimes referred to as a Readiness Review. The purpose is to review some of the highlights of your system to determine if it appears to be implemented and suitable, and whether you are "ready" to move forward to the Stage 2 certification audit. The deliverable is a report that lists that decision, and the results of this review. Our report (Smithers) will also list some comments about things that may not appear quite suitable yet, that need some review and could be a problem when the Stage 2 audit comes around.

 

[Crusader]

Thanks everyone. I've never had to do a Readiness Review. They weren't mandatory in 1998.

Many of you do these Readiness things and many have been subject to them. I was just merely hoping to get data on various experiences.

 

[Crusader]

Day 1 done of readiness audit. 1/2 day left.

I did not know that a full cycle of audits must be completed for the stage 1. I asked several times but never got clear answers. So another stage 1 is set for January. Where does it say that?

Yeah, I'm showing successful implementation and progress and moving forward but a full cycle has not been completed yet.

Anyway, that is the major showstopper. Easy task, wish I had known. It woulda been done by doing an internal pre-audit. I had originally planned one of those but life/daily duties got in the way - I'm only 1 person doing the entire ISO task.

A couple of other minors - will report later so others can learn from me. It's all good. Nothing I cannot handle.

 

[drgnrider]

... - I'm only 1 person doing the entire ISO task.

I can relate to this from my 14001 experiences back in JAN-MAR.

Full-system audit needs to be done in order to get the Management Review done.

If you have internal auditors, this is the time that they do the first full-system audit. I planned the start of this audit as hands-on practice during our internal auditor training, done onsite as needed to train all six of them. This is one of the few audits where they were working in teams.

 

[Crusader]

I asked the auditor if there was a specific shopping list of "must do" requirements for stage 1 readiness and the answer was "No".

So how the hell am I supposed to know what to have done and what I can have in-process at a stage 1?

arghhhhh!!!

 

[drgnrider]

Sounds like you might want to re-evaluate your Auditor and/or CB. My 14001 Auditor was extremely helpful in informing me of what they would be looking for, and at, in Stage 1, ideally the whole system will be in-place and have proof of functioning. Part of the Stage 1 was "observing" our processes and noting comments, but not grading. I believe AndyN stated it best:

The stage 1 is to ensure scope, headcount ... That your documentation exists and covers the requirements (procedures, quality manual etc) and that there's been implementation, internal audits and management reviews.

Basically, the goals are 1) all documents are in-place that answer to the requirements and 2) Management Review completed, so "top management" is aware of the system's status.

Our auditor said they were looking at the framework (skeleton) that will hold the system together, ("the minimum requirements"): management support, assignment of duties, policy statement, objectives, documentation, CA/PA, reporting, etc. "no glaring holes".

Our Stage 1 auditor asked questions and observed our process to ensure the scope of the documents matched the processes and that we had all the documents that we needed. They even asked some Stage 2 questions to ensure we had covered some of the more common "gaps" that they tend to see from new new applicants.

The time between stages 1 and 2 is to make the adjustments and have the records to show the process is working. We even chose to create, and delete, some Work Instructions during this time period.

But, this is just my experience... sounds like I had a fairly decent one.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

I did not know that a full cycle of audits must be completed for the stage 1. Where does it say that?

ISO 17021 does not require a cycle of internal audits done prior to stage 1. It reads

evaluate if the internal audits and management review are being planned and performed, and that the level of implementation of the management system substantiates that the client is ready for the stage 2 audit.

So, the auditor created the requirement out of thin air OR the CB has that requirement, which goes beyond ISO 17021.

If it is the latter, you should have been formally informed.

We could have a case of the CB auditor deliberately deciding to cut the stage 1 audit short because s/he could have more important things to do, such as watching Captain Phillips .

It seems (to me that) we had a semi-rogue auditor who decided to (unilaterally) cut short a stage 1 audit for no good reason. If I were the customer, any invoice associated with this audit would be rejected for "services not rendered". Unless it was one of the CB's that demand pre-payment. :mg:

 

[Crusader]

Thanks. I asked the auditor about the requirement but he could not produce where it stated it and he somewhat dodged the question.
I've never had this problem with my CB. I've never been thru a stage 1 until today also.
I have completed 4 of 11 planned audits per my schedule. He said if I had...let's say at least 8 done, then that would have been acceptable.

I was already planning to do a pre-audit and cover the remainder but just haven't got around to it. I've only been implementing ISO for 6 months total time. Not all of those 6 months have been devoted to ISO.

The opening meeting, they gave me the option of leaving or continuing with the stage 1....all just because of the failure to do a full cycle of auditing for a stage 1!