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What are the changes in supervising according to ISO17025?

#1
Hi to all,

my lab is in process of applying ISO 17025/2017. Can anyone give me an example of one supervision of personnel. what are the changes in supervising according to new version of standard? do i need to do the exams ?

thanks
 
#2
Not sure what exams you are referring to here.

Supervision in the 2017 version is a bit simplified. There are not as many specific requirements.
For example, the 2005 version says:
"The management of the laboratory shall formulate the goals with respect to the education, training
and skills of the laboratory personnel. The laboratory shall have a policy and procedures for identifying training
needs and providing training of personnel. The training programme shall be relevant to the present and
anticipated tasks of the laboratory. The effectiveness of the training actions taken shall be evaluated."
The 2017 version has:
"The laboratory shall ensure that the personnel have the competence to perform laboratory
activities for which they are responsible and to evaluate the significance of deviations."

The biggest change between the two versions is the heavy emphasis now on "competence". No longer are "training records" going to be sufficient, you have to have a procedure and records for how you determine the competency of your employees.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Milena,

You may find that your lab tech job descriptions already define the abilities, skills and knowledge required of them. So how does your lab verify that techs apply the required competencies before they work unsupervised?

That is the question you are answering for the benefit of employee safety, colleague safety, lab management and the lab's clients.

This fits with the fact that labs, these days, are accredited for their competence to deliver the services described in their scope of accreditation.

Best wishes,

John
 
#4
Thank you for rapid answer.

Im sorry im a bit boring, but im very young in this filed and i need help :) so, these are my questions,

1. i have a procedure "Personnel" where i describe personnel files, supervising and training. Can i have competence describing withing this procedure or i must have totally new procedure "Personnel competence"?
2. what method do you use as supervising ? i use observation, interview and comparison with me as supervisor, is it enough? now when the need to assess the efficiency of training has been erased what method should i use, is it enough to write for example "satisfactory - unsatisfactory"
3. what does it means in standard 6.2.5. f) monitoring competence of personnel? and and 6.2.5.a) determining the competence requirements?

im working in microbiology lab for drinking water examination.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Milena,

Procedures (both documented and undocumented) specify requirements for processes.

Personnel is a function but is not a process.

Recruiting and training are processes of which Personnel may have some responsibilities.

Competence is the intended result of recruiting and training (or subcontracting).

Note that process means work whereas a procedure specifies requirements for the work.

So, analyze your lab’s recruiting process. Is this work guided by a procedure that requires the supervisor to specify the required abilities, skills and knowledge of the new employee (whether recruited from outside or within)? If not how are they assured of finding candidates who at least have the potential to be competent?

You’ve not confirmed that your lab's job descriptions specify the abilities, skills and knowledge required of each job holder. Your lab may do this another way, if so please describe.

Usually, the recruiting process results in employees who need at little training but they already have the ability and the required knowledge.

Supervisor then either directly of indirectly monitors a new employee's work until he or she shows they are competent or able to do that work well. Whether direct or indirect the person doing the monitoring is also verified as competent (able to do this work well).

I suggest you invest some time talking to your colleagues to find out how they recruit, train and supervise workers so they are confident they will do their work well.

Best wishes,

John
 
#7
Thank you for rapid answer.

Im sorry im a bit boring, but im very young in this filed and i need help :) so, these are my questions,

1. i have a procedure "Personnel" where i describe personnel files, supervising and training. Can i have competence describing withing this procedure or i must have totally new procedure "Personnel competence"?
2. what method do you use as supervising ? i use observation, interview and comparison with me as supervisor, is it enough? now when the need to assess the efficiency of training has been erased what method should i use, is it enough to write for example "satisfactory - unsatisfactory"
3. what does it means in standard 6.2.5. f) monitoring competence of personnel? and and 6.2.5.a) determining the competence requirements?

im working in microbiology lab for drinking water examination.

Efficiency of training is now what is referred to as Competence. Both need you to demonstrate that whatever training you have provided has the result of the personnel being competent in performing their job.

6.2.5 a) means you need to determine what a competent person needs to know in order to perform their job. After you come up with that you will need to document what competence is defined as for the job.
6.2.5 f) requires more documentation as to how you have verified that the personnel have demonstrated that they are competent. That can be observation, analysis of their results, comparison to other competent persons, etc.
 
#8
Efficiency of training is now what is referred to as Competence. Both need you to demonstrate that whatever training you have provided has the result of the personnel being competent in performing their job.

6.2.5 a) means you need to determine what a competent person needs to know in order to perform their job. After you come up with that you will need to document what competence is defined as for the job.
6.2.5 f) requires more documentation as to how you have verified that the personnel have demonstrated that they are competent. That can be observation, analysis of their results, comparison to other competent persons, etc.
Thank you very much!!!! this is very helpful answer.
 
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