What difference(s) you see before and after ISO 9001 certification?

[somashekar]

Re: What difference(s) you see before and after ISO 14001 and ohsas 18001

What difference(s) you see before and after ISO 14001 and ohsas 18001

In all agreement with Andy, my perception is that certification per se is not a difference making aspect. With ISO9001. or 14k or OHSAS 18k, the differences that must become visible is the awareness of the scope and requirement of the systems that each focus upon, and the sensitivity to each and every activity with all the systems in the back of our thought, (quality, safety, environmental), if an organization subscribes to any or all of these. The communication and interaction between people (process people) getting better and smoother. The feedback and corrective action mechanism becoming smooth and with direction and purpose. A noiseless, smooth and optimum paced work., just like a firmly fixed, well balanced, oiled and correctly loaded motor in operation.
This much difference will do a world of good and for this the certificate or certification part is not a primary difference driver. This comes from the management attitude and inclination towards systems approach to management and how this is driven downwards for meaningful implementation.

 

[JaneB]

Re: What difference(s) you see before and after ISO 14001 and ohsas 18001

certification per se is not a difference making aspect.

Well, yes and no (but oh yes, I entirely agree that it has to be driven by senior management, and without that? forget it.)

For many of my clients, getting certified was important because it means they now have or have kept or can bid on work that they were excluded from before, because many government departments here (federal, state and even local) prefer it, demand it, or even won't deal with anyone who doesn't have it. And many of the larger companies want or prefer certified suppliers also.

It's a very valid question: what difference has it made? But as Randy so eloquently illustrated, if you haven't planned, you're gonna get what you get, so if you can't think of or notice any differences, maybe they aren't, or maybe they haven't been adequately measured/monitored/planned OR they are perhaps there, but not been adequately communicated.

But then, not defining what you want from your system before going for certification is one of the classic mistakes made by too many companies. There have to be some good reasons for doing it, and even if one of the main drivers is external (eg, government work for many of my clients), there has to be at least one good internal reason for doing it too.

And having the 'certificate on the wall' isn't a good one.

 

[AndyN]

The answer is probably: "Yes, it does, but possibly in only certain customers in certain markets"...

Somashekar - your perception of you market is probably accurate - I've heard CBs are asking only a US$100 a day... I can't imagine what competency the auditor is at that rate (even given the 'usual' rates)

 

[Wes Bucey]

Your question is about Certification, not the implementation of a Quality Management System (based on ISO 9001) isn't it? I want to be sure, the correct question is answered...

Certification benefits don't affect many things people have posted about, since that's more about having an effective management system and implementation, not what your CB brings to the table!

So, if you truly are asking about the before and after of certification, I'd expect something along the lines of:-

An increase in opportunities to bid on work from new customers (they chose you because you have a certificate)!

A reduction in disruption/costs associated with customer audits. (some won't need to audit you if you have a certificate)

A reduction in time taken to complete customer quality surveys (don't complete the form, just send a copy of your certificate)

What value do you attribute to the findings from your CB auditor? (you pay them to come in and find something, don't you?)

These are certainly "sales points" of projected benefits of registration certificate. The real question is: "Do registrants feel they ARE getting these benefits?" The corollary question is: "Do the benefits received more than justify the cost of 3rd party registration?"

 

[AndyN]

These are certainly "sales points" of projected benefits of registration certificate. The real question is: "Do registrants feel they ARE getting these benefits?" The corollary question is: "Do the benefits received more than justify the cost of 3rd party registration?"

Coming from the supply chain side, the question is better answered, often, from the customers' point of view! Given a couple of hundred suppliers, who would a customer's SQA rather deal with? The benefits aren't solely with the registered organization. If we go back to Frederick Warner's White paper on the subject - which kicked off the whole 3rd Party option, it was to reduce burden on both sides!

Also, unless an organization had to maintain multiple QMS to meet different customer requirements, there may not be a perceived value. From personal experience, I know certification can be a huge benefit for the poor QM who had 14 (yes, 14) quality manuals and procedures for different customers!

 

[Wes Bucey]

Coming from the supply chain side, the question is better answered, often, from the customers' point of view! Given a couple of hundred suppliers, who would a customer's SQA rather deal with? The benefits aren't solely with the registered organization. If we go back to Frederick Warner's White paper on the subject - which kicked off the whole 3rd Party option, it was to reduce burden on both sides!

Also, unless an organization had to maintain multiple QMS to meet different customer requirements, there may not be a perceived value. From personal experience, I know certification can be a huge benefit for the poor QM who had 14 (yes, 14) quality manuals and procedures for different customers!

Perhaps the perception of value from a registration certificate depends on how the registrant's management exploits the fact of registration.

Are they seeking new business in supply chains where registration is valued or are they expending time, energy, and money trying to enter supply chains where the higher links in the chain are indifferent to registration?

From my own experience as a customer, the presence or absence of registration was very low on my list of priorities for either off-the-shelf or made-to-order products, since my list of suppliers was relatively small and we vetted each supplier to the extent necessary to feel comfortable doing business. We certainly put a lot of personal effort in approving every made-to-order [custom] supplier. Much less effort into off-the-shelf suppliers.

The fact we experienced was that registration by a custom supplier meant we would probably get uniform documentation, but workmanship and product quality could still be sub par and we still needed personal investigation for the type of custom work we bought.

 

[JaneB]

Andy makes a good point about considering the benefits form the customers' viewpoint, for which there is some evidence.

For example, a summary of findings of a UK survey What Do Customers Know or Care? about ISO 9000:

• More than 1/4 (26%) of the general adult population was already aware of the standards. Knowledge was concentrated among working people.
• Results suggest positive attitudes towards ISO 9000 and companies certified to the standard. They tend to perceive products and services associated with ISO 9000 as being of higher quality.
• Consumers are more likely to contact a company if it uses 'ISO 9000' in the labelling and marking of products/services
• Consumers possess greater levels of trust and confidence in ISO 9000 products and services
• The labeling of products or services with a logo denoting ISO 9000 is likely to cause consumers to prefer them.
• One interesting finding was that it would be 'beneficial for companies having certification to promote increased public awareness of ISO 9000, because increased levels of consumer awareness should improve levels of confidence and trust in their products and services'.

The Phoenix Police attributed $11m in savings to getting ISO 9001. (Source: video previously on ISO website, unfortunately not there anymore)

While it remains an individual decision for each organisation, I strongly agree with Randy's point (eloquently made, as always). The IT equivalent: 'garbage in, garbage out'.