What do you do when an auditee says "No thank you"

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#1
I'm auditing a group who is not familiar with me - a different site than usual.

I have asked a process owner to show me how he controls his documentation, as this process group has decided to internally define and manage controls for their SOPs and policies. The response to my request to review his internal document control process, with examples, was a polite (paraphrased) "No thank you, we talked about enough already - you asked me all you are supposed to ask me yesterday; more, in fact."

Of course we must routinely audit control of internal documents, and I told him that, assuring him it was a normal part of almost every audit we do, and straightforward.

I'm rather amused, yet bemused at this outright refusal. Has anyone else experience with this? What did you do? He's highly placed in the organization.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#3
As Jim mentioned, I would make a comment in the audit report that the audit was not finished. Lack of cooperation by the oddities auditees did not allow you to conduct a thorough and representative sample of the internal controls in place for the document control of the specific area.

If you have a closing meeting, I would make the comment as well.

The key thing is for whomever is in charge of the audit program must realize this audit is not finished. If auditees are allowed to bully themselves out of an audit, word will spread and you will have less than 100% cooperation in future audits. Auditors must be in control of the audit, not the auditees. If the organization top management sides with him, it will be just another indication of how much value they place in the audit program.
 
#4
Jennifer, if I understand correctly aren't you the owner of the audit process? Correct me, please, if I'm wrong. I may have formed an incorrect perception.

Of course, we don't know this character etc. I'm willing to guess, he's got a skewed idea of what the audit is about. You could report a lack of co-operation in the audit but, frankly (and especially if you are the audit process owner) what does it achieve? Is a peer or higher going to question/counsel him? Talk to him like a 'Dutch Uncle'? Will it appear in some Management Review records? How will the audit be concluded, if as Sidney suggests, the audit isn't over?

I'd be thinking how to approach the next audit on his patch and how to avoid him doing it again...
 
L

lego55

#6
The response to my request to review his internal document control process, with examples, was a polite (paraphrased) "No thank you, we talked about enough already - you asked me all you are supposed to ask me yesterday; more, in fact."
Jennifer, I'm curious...how did he know what you were supposed to ask yesterday, and that it was enough?

:)
 
S

silentrunning

#7
In the early days of our ISO experience (back when I was still a machinist) one of my fellow workers told the auditor that he didn't have time for this s*&t and would he please get out of his way. It was explained by the owner that the employee DID have time. After about a half hour in the owners office that employee came back out and appologized. Our auditor still laughs about that experience. Thankfully!
 
G

Groo3

#8
I would ask them to answer just two or three more questions then I would leave them alone.
  1. What is the corporate quality policy?
  2. How do they support the corporate quality policy?
  3. How do they help the company keep their registration(s) / certification(s)?
At this point, I would expect to see a lightbulb go off... If not, document it as Jim mentions above...

Just the facts, ma'am. :D
When we first began our formal infernal audit program (not quite before electricity, but it was over 20 years ago), we quickly found out that we needed to provide audit awareness training to all employees on what an audit is, the difference between an internal and an external audit, the do's and don't(s) when an auditor asks you a question, etc. This basic awareness training helped to improve that type of attitude at our site. In the rare few instances where the auditee's attitude did not improve, stick to Jim's advice = just the facts... The bottom line is = If it is a priority with Top Management, it should be their priority as well.

There also needs to be a balance in how much time you take from an auditee... In your eyes, more needs to be covered... in their eyes, you overstayed your welcome.

Perception is truth in the minds of the perceiver...
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
I think I see your dilemma:

  1. Of course you can just document his refusal, even to the point of a general written note documenting the specific documents refused, signed by the auditee, even including space for his explanation/comment/rant.
  2. if (1) above, how will that affect your status in the organization? Any reprisal? Will other auditees play the same game if the first auditee weathers the storm?
  3. Did you miss a "teaching opportunity" to resolve the situation in a one-on-one session with the auditee, thereby increasing your own status and credibility as a "problem solver?"
I don't have an easy answer - factors affecting the situation revolve around the actual demeanor of the auditee - aggressive? or just ignorant? Also around your own situation - secure or shaky within the organization?

This seems to be one of those situations without a one-size-fits-all solution.

You have my sympathy.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#10
I would ask them to answer just two or three more questions then I would leave them alone.
  1. What is the corporate quality policy?
  2. How do they support the corporate quality policy?
  3. How do they help the company keep their registration(s) / certification(s)?
What do these questions have to do with control of documentation?
There also needs to be a balance in how much time you take from an auditee... In your eyes, more needs to be covered... in their eyes, you overstayed your welcome....
That's why internal audits should never be too informal. There is always a need to balance formality and control. I don't know if it is the case here, but, had the auditee been provided with an agenda for the audit, he would be aware of the time and scope of the audit.

My main concern with this situation is if this represents a culture of belittling internal audits. While you always going to have whacky people to deal with, an auditee who believes they can determine when the audit should be over might represent a deeper problem in terms of understanding the need for and value of internal audits.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
GStough Auditing Against Criteria Unfamiliar to Auditee - Yea or Nay? General Auditing Discussions 11
K Tips for Auditee Training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
S Experiences as a female auditor / auditee Career and Occupation Discussions 36
S Why auditee names are not mentioned in Audit Report? General Auditing Discussions 2
L How to deal with resistance from auditee(s) Internal Auditing 20
somashekar Internal Audit without a person as auditee Internal Auditing 6
S Internal Audit Findings Summary Rewrite by an Auditee ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
F How to Calm a Nervous Auditee Internal Auditing 14
K Sending Audit Questions to the Auditee in Advance Internal Auditing 20
Howard Atkins What you as an auditee should know about your CB (Certification Body) Registrars and Notified Bodies 0
P What to do when an Auditee Falsifies or Cheated on Records Internal Auditing 6
A What do you do if you have the feeling that your auditee could be lying? Internal Auditing 58
M What to do when Auditee refuses to sign Audit Report General Auditing Discussions 91
J Auditee offered help with anything in nonconformities Internal Auditing 16
P Internal Audit Finding - Root Cause Analysis: Auditor or an Auditee Responsibility? Internal Auditing 24
B Could ISO 22000 auditee hold Auditor Responsible for subsequent safety breaches? Food Safety - ISO 22000, HACCP (21 CFR 120) 16
V Can the Management Representative represent top management as the sole auditee? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
L Corrective action following a wrong answer of the auditee ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 19
B Providing Auditee with Checklist prior to Audit General Auditing Discussions 48
M Auditee Evaluation of Auditors Example, Form or Template General Auditing Discussions 6
E Being IQA Team Leader and auditee - Auditor Independence General Auditing Discussions 9
Claes Gefvenberg The Ideal Auditee General Auditing Discussions 22
J Can I issue a NCR if the auditee did not comply what he is suppose to do? General Auditing Discussions 6
Marc GM says no more tailpipe emissions by 2035, carbon neutrality by 2040 World News 45
T What does AS9100 mean when it says you must establish a process to do X? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 24
Marc NASA Says Oregon Company Metals Fraud Caused $700 Million Satellite Failure - 2019 World News 16
B Our NB says that IEC 62304 is an ISO 14971 Requirement ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 1
shimonv 21 CFR 820.20(d) says: Each manufacturer shall establish a Quality Plan 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 4
J jwmuola says Hello Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 1
Marc FCC boss says he'll SHAME broadband firms for fibbing on speeds After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 0
bobdoering Who says you can't calibrate a steel rule! Funny Stuff - Jokes and Humour 14
J Auditor says 5.6.3 should be discussed in Management Review Management Review Meetings and related Processes 62
Wes Bucey "Back Doors" to Encryption - NY times says NSA has them After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 20
Wes Bucey A Headhunter says he has job hunt secrets Career and Occupation Discussions 7
O Is it an Assignable Cause only if the Control Chart says so? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 16
S Auditor says a Minor Nonconformance will become a Major Nonconformance General Auditing Discussions 8
H 'You've got to find what you love,' Jobs says Career and Occupation Discussions 2
Marc Threat analyst says medical devices can be hacked remotely Other Medical Device and Orthopedic Related Topics 6
P Control of Monitoring and Measurement Devices - ISO 13485 Clause 7.6 says ... ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
J Quality Pros? Salaries on the Upswing, ASQ Salary Survey Says Career and Occupation Discussions 4
Stijloor IKEA US Says Thank You to All Its 12,400 Co-Workers World News 5
D Found Watch - Watch is "Element" and says "New York" Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 16
G Dangerous Act - Auditor says major nonconformance for safety (risk) issue Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 21
C Calibration Laboratory Location - GMP says in a secure bonded area General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5
Stijloor Ford Says It Made $2.7 Billion in 2009 World News 8
E FMEA Action Plan Threshold (RPN) - Auditor says Action Plan for an RPN > 84 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 21
J Modern man a wimp says anthropologist Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 0
bobdoering Wheeler is back again! He says it is the last volley! Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 7
J Immortality only 20 years away says scientist Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 20
P Attribute Control Chart in my Process - Black Belt says Not Appropriate Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 11

Similar threads

Top Bottom