What is a Service vs. What is a Product? Production and Service provision

H

Henriqued

#1
Going through ISO 9001:2000, we read in 7.5: "Production and Service provision" and in 7.5.1: "Control of production and service provision" and then it goes on, describing the respective conditions and referring to the product (as usual), like in a) "….the product characteristics".

In the line of all the other sections and sentences, it appears that one could preferably read in both cases, “...... and Product provision”, as opposed to ".......... and Service provision" don’t you think?

What are your opinions? Was it a mistake or a deliberate sentence? In this later case, what is the rationale, when all the other sections, subsections and paragraphs refer to product (provision, monitoring, etc), and not the service (provision, monitoring, etc)?

Certainly, I am aware of the explanation given in paragraph 3 of the same document, stating that whenever the term “product” is mentioned, it can also mean “service”.
However, nowhere in that document is said that the contrary is also true, i.e., whenever you find the word service, it can also mean product!
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#2
Jim,

I agree with your comments 100%. BTW, you say:

> But there are three places where a record is required but
> the reference is missing!

Which/where are these?
 
J

juliedrys

#3
Missing Reference to Records

I'm curious about the hidden records too. I found:

7.3.7 Design and development changes: "Design and development changes shall be identified and records maintained..."

(I suppose one could argue that the records of the review of the changes required just after this would be also a record of the change)

and

7.6 Control of Monitoring and Measuring Devices: "The organization shall assess and record the validity of the previous measuring results.."

But I didn't find a third. All I did was search for the word "record" or "records" in the document, and looked for a reference to 4.2.4. Perhaps there's something I missed.

Also, thank you for pointing out that "These processes shall be managed by the organization in accordance with the requirements of this International Standard" is a totally redundant statement. I always laugh when I have to explain that one.

Julie
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#4
> In the line of all the other sections and sentences, it
> appears that one could preferably read in both cases,
> "...... and Product provision", as opposed to "..........
> and Service provision" don't you think?

A service is always a product but a product is not always a service. So I'd say yes.

> Also, thank you for pointing out that "These processes
> shall be managed by the organization in accordance with
> the requirements of this International Standard" is a
> totally redundant statement. I always laugh when I have to
> explain that one.

Me too.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#5
Well, yes. I believe so. This is an area where things become quite company specific, but in general the records you mention are, I believe, kept in a typical company. See http://elsmar.com/Imp/sld187.htm

Don't let the lack of a requirement in the standard seduce you into the 'only do what the standard says' trap. Look at your company, your product and your processes and determine what records are appropriate.
 

JodiB

Still plugging along
#6
Originally posted by Henrique
Going through ISO 9001:2000, we read in 7.5: "Production and Service provision" and in 7.5.1: "Control of production and service provision" and then it goes on, describing the respective conditions and referring to the product (as usual), like in a) "….the product characteristics".

In the line of all the other sections and sentences, it appears that one could preferably read in both cases, “...... and Product provision”, as opposed to ".......... and Service provision" don’t you think?

What are your opinions? Was it a mistake or a deliberate sentence? In this later case, what is the rationale, when all the other sections, subsections and paragraphs refer to product (provision, monitoring, etc), and not the service (provision, monitoring, etc)?

Certainly, I am aware of the explanation given in paragraph 3 of the same document, stating that whenever the term “product” is mentioned, it can also mean “service”.
However, nowhere in that document is said that the contrary is also true, i.e., whenever you find the word service, it can also mean product!
"Service" as opposed to your "Product" (which can be a service or a product) is explained in an ISO9000 note as an activity performed at the interface with your customer and is generally intangible. ( the hotel turning down your sheets, the driving directions to the highway that the rental car company gives you, etc. )

My understanding is that when the word "service" is used, it is referring to this intangible that you provide to your customers that is not a part of the product that are supplying to them (a product that may be a service!).

To give an example of how a service company can provide "service" in addition to their service product, ...consider the washing machine repairman who gives you a quick lesson on a small maintenance issue, or who writes down the serial and model number of your machine on a magnet and sticks it in a location where you can easily read it.
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
7.5 Production & Service Provision

I would like a definition for service. Is it only the intangible? Or is repair, or plating, or heat-treating or those non-production type operations a service provision? I would think that Service Provision would be a vocabulary term in 9000, especially when it is often an exclusion to a QMS Scope!

Thanks for the Service! (I THINK!)
Doug
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#8
Douglas E. Purdy said:
I would like a definition for service. Is it only the intangible? Or is repair, or plating, or heat-treating or those non-production type operations a service provision? I would think that Service Provision would be a vocabulary term in 9000, especially when it is often an exclusion to a QMS Scope!

Thanks for the Service! (I THINK!)
Doug
Good question! Well, ISO 9000-2000, section 3.4.2. covers it. They list 4 product categories, services, software, hardware, and processed materials. If something contains more than 1 of the above, pick the "dominant element". It also says "service is ... generally intangible". There is lotsa text there, and I don't have the e-copy or I would cut and paste it for you. Maybe someone else does, or, if not and you need it, I'll type it all when I have more time.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#9
Douglas E. Purdy said:
...is repair, or plating, or heat-treating or those non-production type operations a service provision?.
IMO no, they aren't. Note 2 in 3.4.2 of ISO 9000:2000 is pretty much a definition.
NOTE 2 Service is the result of at least one activity necessarily performed at the interface between the supplier (3.3.6) and customer (3.3.5) and is generally intangible. Provision of a service can involve, for example, the following:
— an activity performed on a customer-supplied tangible product (e.g. automobile to be repaired);
— an activity performed on a customer-supplied intangible product (e.g. the income statement needed to prepare a tax return);
— the delivery of an intangible product (e.g. the delivery of information in the context of knowledge transmission);
— the creation of ambience for the customer (e.g. in hotels and restaurants).
It says service is performed at the interface between the supplier and customer. Are repair, plating, or heat-treating occuring at the customer "interface?" No, but transport (one of the examples given in 9001 as a supporting service) is.
Is it only the intangible?
According to the "definition" it is generally intangible. It doesn't sound completely exclusive. :confused:
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#10
Repair seems to me to clearly be a serivce -- as in the ISO example (e.g. automobile to be repaired).

How about plating? Well, I could liken plating to painting an automobile, which I would consider a service (the paint value is much less than the labor value usually, so the labor would be the "dominant element").

Heat treating? I'd say it is "an activity performed on a customer-supplied tangible product", so again I'd say "service".

JMO of course.
 
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