What is in a Product Audit? TS 16949 Clause 8.2.2.3

#11
I'm familiar with the term in the reference, John. Are you saying that it means that someone from the function who made a product can't perform a product audit?

As you'll remember, ISO 9001 (9002 etc) used the word "independence" to describe auditors, but it was subsequently dropped from the 2000 version, due to the difficulty of application is small organizations (I seem to remember). If that's so, why can't "independent" be synonymous with 'objective and impartial'?? Especially when with the caveat 'you can't audit your own work'.....

I had hoped that we'd taken a (huge) stride forwards in this respect, but it seems as if some are still buried in the past with having 'outsiders' from the process/product etc. only perform audits.......I hope you aren't one of them!
 
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John Broomfield

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#12
I'm familiar with the term in the reference, John. Are you saying that it means that someone from the function who made a product can't perform a product audit?

As you'll remember, ISO 9001 (9002 etc) used the word "independence" to describe auditors, but it was subsequently dropped from the 2000 version, due to the difficulty of application is small organizations (I seem to remember). If that's so, why can't "independent" be synonymous with 'objective and impartial'?? Especially when with the caveat 'you can't audit your own work'.....

I had hoped that we'd taken a (huge) stride forwards in this respect, but it seems as if some are still buried in the past with having 'outsiders' from the process/product etc. only perform audits.......I hope you aren't one of them!
Agreed...

I guess you will be working to remove the word independent from the definition of audit in ISO 9000?

But as it stands those involved with making and verifying the product cannot conduct audits of their own products (strictly speaking).
 
#13
John, maybe the folks who write ISO 19011 should sit in with the folks who write ISO 9001 etc.....

BTW - if someone who hadn't made that particular product did the audit, would that count?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#15
John, maybe the folks who write ISO 19011 should sit in with the folks who write ISO 9001 etc.....

BTW - if someone who hadn't made that particular product did the audit, would that count?
Absolutely, no problem.
So where is the bright line of independence? What if, in Andy's example, the person doing the auditing didn't make the product, but reports to the same person as the one who makes the product?
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#16
So where is the bright line of independence? What if, in Andy's example, the person doing the auditing didn't make the product, but reports to the same person as the one who makes the product?

Jim,

You are referring to a 1994 requirement. Audit no longer requires that degree of independence.

John
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#17
Jim,

You are referring to a 1994 requirement. Audit no longer requires that degree of independence.

John
Let's not play games with the words, as TC176 likes to do. Some degree of independence is required, even if that word isn't used in the standards.

A hypothetical: let's imagine an ideal company, where the internal auditors actually participate in helping to improve things they discover in their audits. For example, an auditor discovers that something that should be happening in a process isn't happening, and rewrites a "documented procedure" and trains, or helps to train, the operators on the new requirements. Would that auditor be proscribed from auditing that process in the future? After all, the new configuration of the process is the result of his own work, no? If the auditor were barred from auditing the process, how long would it be, in a relatively small company, before auditors couldn't audit anything?

Who determines the point at which something becomes one's "own work"?
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#18
Let's not play games with the words, as TC176 likes to do. Some degree of independence is required, even if that word isn't used in the standards.

A hypothetical: let's imagine an ideal company, where the internal auditors actually participate in helping to improve things they discover in their audits. For example, an auditor discovers that something that should be happening in a process isn't happening, and rewrites a "documented procedure" and trains, or helps to train, the operators on the new requirements. Would that auditor be proscribed from auditing that process in the future? After all, the new configuration of the process is the result of his own work, no? If the auditor were barred from auditing the process, how long would it be, in a relatively small company, before auditors couldn't audit anything?

Who determines the point at which something becomes one's "own work"?
I have no argument regarding the fact that for an audit to be an audit it has to be independent, impartial and objective.

This is why auditors try not to provide advice (unless it is documented as an audit objective from the audit client). Advising as requested by the auditee may conceal a system weakness. It is the auditee's job to correct processes and update procedures before and after the audit. If the auditees are incapable of doing this then it is a system weakness and should be reported as such (if not by the auditee then by the auditor) for permanent improvement action (removal of root causes).

Yes, if the auditor gets involved in making up for this system weakness then they could end up auditing their own work and the system weakness will persist!

You were asking about auditing a product for which the auditee reports to the same person as the auditee. I answered your question correctly and completely and not by "playing with words".:confused:
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#19
I have no argument regarding the fact that for an audit to be an audit it has to be independent, impartial and objective.
Nor do I, but I still don't know for sure (and I'm not sure anyone does) just what "independent" means.
This is why auditors try not to provide advice (unless it is documented as an audit objective from the audit client). Advising as requested by the auditee may conceal a system weakness. It is the auditee's job to correct processes and update procedures before and after the audit. If the auditees are incapable of doing this then it is a system weakness and should be reported as such (if not by the auditee then by the auditor) for permanent improvement action (removal of root causes).
In the hypothetical I offered, I was referring to an internal audit, and I know of no requirement or guidance that suggests that internal auditors shouldn't offer advice or even participate in corrective actions and other improvement efforts. In fact, I think that internal auditors should be involved in those things if they're qualified, so my original question stands: is an internal auditor who participates substantively in CA/improvement of a process he's audited still "independent" of that process?

Yes, if the auditor gets involved in making up for this system weakness then they could end up auditing their own work and the system weakness will persist!
Well, we don't agree (if you're indeed referring to internal auditing) that the fact that an auditor participates in CA or improvement is doing so because of a system weakness. I call it a system strength when that level of inclusiveness and participation is in evidence.

You were asking about auditing a product for which the auditee reports to the same person as the auditee. I answered your question correctly and completely and not by "playing with words".:confused:
I didn't mean any offense by the "playing with words" comment; it just seems to me that we too often dance around (there I go again:D)these things without actually addressing them.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#20
Nor do I, but I still don't know for sure (and I'm not sure anyone does) just what "independent" means.
Jim,

Independence means no dependency. Advising as requested by the auditee may conceal a system weakness.

So, if the internal auditor gets involved in making up for this system weakness then they could end up auditing their own work and the system weakness will persist!

The system should help people do good work without the need for audit. It rarely does but the internal auditor has to avoid making the system depend on him or her.

Systems that depend on their internal auditors are in need of improvement. Such improvement will not come if the internal auditor perpetuates this dependency.

Sometimes the audit client is willing to pay for advice as part of audit which is why, on such rare occasions, the supplementary audit objective is documented. The audit client has a right not to pay for advice when it thinks that it has paid for audit.

You may be saying its okay for the internal auditor to compromise these principles if an accredited third party auditor also audits the system.

Trouble is many third party auditors also like to make the systems they audit depend on them.
 
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