What is ISO 9001 Certification and how does it relate to Product Quality?

[Big Jim]

So basically you're telling me the only thing I need in place are a couple of procedures and documents and that's it. Then I have to pretend that I'm doing something to improve and depending on the mood of the auditor, he will require that I do a lot or he may feel that a couple of small steps are already enough and given that nothings defined I can't even argue with the auditor, except get someone else with his/her own moody opinion. :mg:

Well, if that's the case then that would explain the general perception that ISO certification doesn't mean much. But that would really suck, why not use customer requirements as a defined goal that must be met, wouldn't that be a lot better and less arbitrary ?

Wow. I can't see how you got that from my post. I wonder if you read it, or any of the other posts on this thread.

Do you want help? If you sincerely do, be a bit more specific about what you want and quite blowing off our responses. I'm not wasting any more of my time on this thread unless the OP starts acting like he really wants help.

 

[Arise]

Ok, one last try. I honestly don't understand why you guys are getting so upset. First I'm accussed of using this thread for lawsuits, then get a sarcastic response and then people won't even answer questions.

What I'm doing here is giving you my thoughts, my expectation was that you guys would see the error and try to correct it.

You guys seem surprised that I'm not respecting ISO, well, with the limited information I'm getting here, the other topic where 51% of the members state that ISO "has become a scam", my own company's experiences, I'd have to say that to me it's logical that I'm seeing problems.

Let's start from the beginning now : I just read the ISO specification and in the last days thought about it and now I've created my own interpretation of it, lets call it ISO9999. Ok, ISO9999 states that customer expectations must be met and it gives a bunch of procedures that should be in place to achieve that. So ISO9999 requires me to consistently meet those requirements. If I fail than I'm non-complaint.
The company can offcourse limit the requirements it expects, so you and up with a contract with the 2 parties detailing all customer requirements.

Let's take an example : I agree with a company that my minimum requirement is
1) a working product that should keep working for 1 year. Now the company is required to provide this, not just "best effor" but actually meet that goal. Because the company knows in advance that this is unattainable, it will also agree with me that it could fail but that it will provide warranty for 1 year.
2) that my product must be 4 cm long with a tolerance of 5%. Now out of this, the company out of ISO9999 would have to proof to the auditor that it can achieve this, by showing not only procedures but also the actual machine that checks the 5% tolerance. Now because this machine could fail and nothings perfect, the company can't actually guarentee 100% the result, but because ISO9999 dictates that requirements must be met, the company is forced to agree in advance what it will do if it fails. So let say the product cost 50$, the company agrees to pay me 100$ for each product that's not 4cm long within a 5% tolerance. I, as a customer find this ok, and so whatever happens my requirements are met.

Now, I really like this ISO9999 but I'm under the impression that this is not the same as ISO9001. So please explain the differences and in case - and I expect this - these tangible requirements aren't there, then what proof do I get as a customer about ISO9001 ?

 

[AndyN]

With all due respect - it seems to me as if you've made up your mind what you wanted to read and we didn't validate your thoughts.

I, for one, don't understand the recent story you use to justify your point of view. It seems you've made up your mind, based on the reasons you've recently cited. Of course you see your logic, but as the 'student' here, perhaps you'd take a moment to consider that there's probably in excess of 50 years of experience right here in the answers to your questions. We have the advantage of course - been there, done that. I would have thought that our experience might have carried some weight with you, before you decided we didn't play ball the way you anticipated!

Others here have posted their comments, which, given the minimal original information, have considered a number of situations behind your inquiry. Please don't mis-understand. We have had people here looking for information to be (potentially) used in law suits, hence the responses. How can we know your motives? If you turn this forum into 20 questions, so we get the idea behind your inquiry, it turns people off reading through it all.

If I can suggest - be straight with us, we'll be straight with you! No examples, stories or similar. We gave good straight answers so what don't you like about them? Honestly!

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Ok, one last try. I honestly don't understand why you guys are getting so upset.

If you disclose your hidden agenda and ask clear, direct questions, it would be a much better way.

Let's start from the beginning now : I just read the ISO specification and in the last days thought about it and now I've created my own interpretation of it, lets call it ISO9999.

Anyone can interpret anything, but, in order to do it right, one must be educated on the subject at hand. Have you had any training on ISO 9001? What makes you believe you can interpret ISO 9001 meaningfully? What are your credentials?

Now, I really like this ISO9999 but I'm under the impression that this is not the same as ISO9001.

No, it isn't. ISO 9999 only exists in your head. ISO 9001 is used in the real World, everyday, by millions of people.

 

[Sorin]

1) a working product that should keep working for 1 year. Now the company is required to provide this, not just "best effor" but actually meet that goal. Because the company knows in advance that this is unattainable, it will also agree with me that it could fail but that it will provide warranty for 1 year.

2) that my product must be 4 cm long with a tolerance of 5%.
Now out of this, the company out of ISO9999 would have to proof to the auditor that it can achieve this, by showing not only procedures but also the actual machine that checks the 5% tolerance.
Now because this machine could fail and nothings perfect, the company can't actually guarentee 100% the result, but because ISO9999 dictates that requirements must be met, the company is forced to agree in advance what it will do if it fails.
So let say the product cost 50$, the company agrees to pay me 100$ for each product that's not 4cm long within a 5% tolerance. I, as a customer find this ok, and so whatever happens my requirements are met.

Let's forget for a moment ISO9001/9999 and just call it a quality management system standard. Do you have the smallest grasp of what "quality management system" stands for?
I'll take a leap of faith and assume that you don't cause otherwise you will not ask point no1. Feel free to prove me wrong

Now...next for point no2.
Apart from Dimension and Tolerance there are a bunch of numbers in your statement that make no sense from a quality point of view.
There are requirements that YOU should put in place (as process control, preventive maintenance, inspection points, etc) in order to achieve the Dimension within the Tolerance.

Now....if you really want to know what quality is all about you better arm yourself with patience and began reading. I'll suggest, for starters, Juran and Deming.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

So basically you're telling me the only thing I need in place are a couple of procedures and documents and that's it. Then I have to pretend that I'm doing something to improve and depending on the mood of the auditor, he will require that I do a lot or he may feel that a couple of small steps are already enough and given that nothings defined I can't even argue with the auditor, except get someone else with his/her own moody opinion. :mg:

Well, if that's the case then that would explain the general perception that ISO certification doesn't mean much. But that would really suck, why not use customer requirements as a defined goal that must be met, wouldn't that be a lot better and less arbitrary ?

Could you please tell me where you heard that this is basically what ISO9001 is about? I am curious whom may have started you down the wrong path, of understanding, in my opinion.

By the way: What is your function within your organization?

 

[Sorin]

hehe....did a search on google for washer + lawsuit....

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/maytag_wash.html

 

[ab001]

Ok, one last try. I honestly don't understand why you guys are getting so upset. First I'm accussed of using this thread for lawsuits, then get a sarcastic response and then people won't even answer questions.

What I'm doing here is giving you my thoughts, my expectation was that you guys would see the error and try to correct it.

You guys seem surprised that I'm not respecting ISO, well, with the limited information I'm getting here, the other topic where 51% of the members state that ISO "has become a scam", my own company's experiences, I'd have to say that to me it's logical that I'm seeing problems.

Let's start from the beginning now : I just read the ISO specification and in the last days thought about it and now I've created my own interpretation of it, lets call it ISO9999. Ok, ISO9999 states that customer expectations must be met and it gives a bunch of procedures that should be in place to achieve that. So ISO9999 requires me to consistently meet those requirements. If I fail than I'm non-complaint.
The company can offcourse limit the requirements it expects, so you and up with a contract with the 2 parties detailing all customer requirements.

Let's take an example : I agree with a company that my minimum requirement is
1) a working product that should keep working for 1 year. Now the company is required to provide this, not just "best effor" but actually meet that goal. Because the company knows in advance that this is unattainable, it will also agree with me that it could fail but that it will provide warranty for 1 year.
2) that my product must be 4 cm long with a tolerance of 5%. Now out of this, the company out of ISO9999 would have to proof to the auditor that it can achieve this, by showing not only procedures but also the actual machine that checks the 5% tolerance. Now because this machine could fail and nothings perfect, the company can't actually guarentee 100% the result, but because ISO9999 dictates that requirements must be met, the company is forced to agree in advance what it will do if it fails. So let say the product cost 50$, the company agrees to pay me 100$ for each product that's not 4cm long within a 5% tolerance. I, as a customer find this ok, and so whatever happens my requirements are met.

Now, I really like this ISO9999 but I'm under the impression that this is not the same as ISO9001. So please explain the differences and in case - and I expect this - these tangible requirements aren't there, then what proof do I get as a customer about ISO9001 ?

1. NASA could give you a spec for a washing machine that has a one in one billion chance of failure in the first year. It'll cost a few dollars more.
LG could give you a spec for a washing machine that has a one in one thousand chance of failure in the first year. It'll cost a few dollars less.
It is entirely up to YOU to decide which one to choose.
2. You could cut that part with a CNC machine, check it on a CMM and still get non-conformances.
You could get a competent craftsman to cut that part with a hacksaw, measure with a tape, and all non-conformances go straight in the bin.
It is entirely up to MANAGEMENT to decide which process to use.
[i'm genuinely not sure which would be better, considering the cost of a compentent craftsman]

ISO is just a tool to Manage your Systems with a focus on Quality (aka customer satisfaction)
it depends on how you use it.

As a customer, your supplier's QMS can tell you that they always make it this way, and they always deal with non-conformances that way. And they want to make you happy so that you hand over enough money.

and another thing: Variation happens. Non-conformance happens.
Deal with it.

 

[howste]

Ok, one last try. I honestly don't understand why you guys are getting so upset. First I'm accussed of using this thread for lawsuits, then get a sarcastic response and then people won't even answer questions.

I suspect that you registered and posted just to get "A Rise" out of us. What are the odds that you're buddies with Nosmo King?