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What is required to tell customers after Audit where nonconformances are found

P

potdar

#11
#11
just66horns said:
So where is the issue?
It is that my internal staff is unsure of what to tell the customer auditor. We're new at this and learning, and I am getting my ducks in a row. Thanks all for being my ducks? or a duck-subset.
You guys and gals have been invaluable to me!
Signed, the incompetent quality manager that can!
Click to expand...
My answer would remain the same. Customer auditor or any other auditor, never hide anything from them (or volunteer anything). Just present the system as it is - A system that may go wrong at times, but has a robust functioning mechanism to locate the issues and take care of them without hurting customer interest.

Just make sure that the system can be presented in this light before you call them in. Thats all.
 
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R

Ramani

#12
#12
As long as there is no clear link between the NCRs & your current Customer compliants, these are still only a Potential NCR
I am sure you would have Containment, Corrective actions planned or Initiated
Preventive can come later
This should satisfy a reasonable auditor9even if it is a customer auditor1)

If there is no contractual obligation, you may wait till their audit

In which area was your Major NCR was on

Agree with Potdar
'Zero defect' is Utopia
System are there to Minimize surprises
 
D

db

#13
#13
just66horns said:
So where is the issue?
It is that my internal staff is unsure of what to tell the customer auditor. We're new at this and learning, and I am getting my ducks in a row. Thanks all for being my ducks? or a duck-subset.
You guys and gals have been invaluable to me!
Signed, the incompetent quality manager that can!
Click to expand...
From a realistic standpoint, I would not be afraid to lay out everything. Not only what was found, but discuss the corrective action plans that are in the works. Spend a few minutes during the opening meeting to discuss how these nonconformities are showing how you system works. Nonconformities should not be viewed as a bad thing. They are just things. When discovered, they show two things. 1) that the system to uncover nonconformities works, and 2) that the system to use nonconformities (and OFI's for that matter) to improve the system also works.
I would much rather find 10 valid nonconformities, than to not find any when those same 10 exist.

As fuzzy stated: Stand behind your system. Don't make excuses. The system uncovered nonconformities and the system is correcting them (and their root causes). The system is working fine, thank you very much.
 
F

fuzzy

#14
#14
just66horns said:
So where is the issue?
It is that my internal staff is unsure of what to tell the customer auditor. We're new at this and learning, and I am getting my ducks in a row. Thanks all for being my ducks? or a duck-subset.
You guys and gals have been invaluable to me!
Signed, the incompetent quality manager that can!
Click to expand...
I don't know you well enough to judge for sure:notme: , but I doubt that you are incompentent in any way. You're skilled enough to come here and ask for help; to admit you don't know what you don't know. Don't beat yourself down, and never ever make the mistake of letting an audit result (positive or negative) become the defintion of you.:D
 
L

lrowe

#15
#15
fuzzy said:
I don't know you well enough to judge for sure:notme: , but I doubt that you are incompentent in any way. You're skilled enough to come here and ask for help; to admit you don't know what you don't know. Don't beat yourself down, and never ever make the mistake of letting an audit result (positive or negative) become the defintion of you.:D
Click to expand...
Well said Fuzzy. Few things get my goat more when somehow ANYTHING that is part of the QMS is considered the resposibility of the Quality department - especially when it goes wrong. They might as well blame you for not paying the gas bill right away too since you have about as much control over that as you do when the rest of the employee zone out when making product.

And while I'm here I say unless specifically documented somewhere, there is no need to share one audit's results unless the second audit want to right a similar finding and then show you are already taking action for that particular case.

Hang tough!!

Larry
 
Icy Mountain

Icy Mountain

Sachem
#16
#16
db said:
From a realistic standpoint, I would not be afraid to lay out everything. Not only what was found, but discuss the corrective action plans that are in the works. Spend a few minutes during the opening meeting to discuss how these nonconformities are showing how you system works. Nonconformities should not be viewed as a bad thing.
Click to expand...
Wow, db. This is one of the few times that I thoroughly disagree with you. I would only even consider doing this with 1 out of the 5 external auditors that I "know" and see regularly. The other 4 would jump on this like a duck on a junebug and use it to stuff their report full without actually having to do any work.:mad: Evidence of my finely tuned corrective action system would be pearls before swine. The 1 good auditor always looks through my entire CI-PA-CA system log anyway, so why bother? I agree with POTDAR above. I don't have ANYTHING to hide but I NEVER volunteer.

I do agree that nonconformities should not be viewed as a bad thing. It is just my experience that you and RJK are the 20% auditors. The other 80% make volunteering CA's way more risky than making them work for it.
 
J

just67horns

#17
#17
Just a note:
I discussed it with the auditor, and he shall be visiting in January, after our re-audit and certificate! (fingers crossed)
 
H

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#18
#18
Icy Mountain said:
Wow, db. This is one of the few times that I thoroughly disagree with you. I would only even consider doing this with 1 out of the 5 external auditors that I "know" and see regularly. The other 4 would jump on this like a duck on a junebug and use it to stuff their report full without actually having to do any work.:mad: Evidence of my finely tuned corrective action system would be pearls before swine. The 1 good auditor always looks through my entire CI-PA-CA system log anyway, so why bother? I agree with POTDAR above. I don't have ANYTHING to hide but I NEVER volunteer.

I do agree that nonconformities should not be viewed as a bad thing. It is just my experience that you and RJK are the 20% auditors. The other 80% make volunteering CA's way more risky than making them work for it.
Click to expand...

I like the one good auditor you mention. But, if the others are so bad, why do you keep them?
 
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