What is the difference between an Audit Plan and an Audit Schedule?

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#11
jmp4429 said:
hjilling:

Do you feel that an audit plan such as this should be defined at the start of each year, for each process? Or could the audit plan for the specific audit be determined just prior to the audit?

We have a system for defining the audit plan - scope, objectives, TS references, customer specific requirements, previous NCR's, inputs, outputs, measurements of success, documents, etc... We determine this 1 to 2 days prior to the audit.

Also, our audit procedure describes in some detail what we audit.

I guess I'm just confused - I want to cover the requirements of the standard, but I'm not especially concerned about what our auditor 'wants' to see.

Frankly, I feel our consultant is looking to frighten the plant manager into paying him to come back (his report mentions he's free for two weeks this month) to fix our problems before the audit. Some of his concerns I agree with, some of them sound like a good way to drum up some business.

What you are describing sounds ok. The specific schedule can be done a few days in advance. And, perhaps the consultant is looking for work. Relax, you're doing pretty good.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
Q

qualityboi

#13
Still not sure why this subject is not black and white

ISO9001:2000 8.2.2 "The responsibilities and requirements for planning and conducting audits...shall be defined in a documented procedure."

So what your debating is that if a schedule is a documented procedure. Far as I am concerned it isn't, otherwise the standard would use the word "schedule"! The intent is for your customers, affected external/internal organizations to be able to see that your planning your audits according to status and importance to further validate the audit process. The concern is that the audits are just not for show, that there is some reasoning behind the way audits are planned, just document the reasoning. It may not be a value added activity for you but it is potentially for customers, 3rd party auditors and management trainees. It is no biggie just 5 lines about of how you plan the audits...so get to work and write it, probably 30min worth of work max.:whip: Now I am not sure but I believe the TS includes all 9001:2000 requirements plus.
Which I am not even sure about TS anymore:topic: since the American automobile market is headed for the pits anyway. I think its rediculous that we have to jump through hoops for folks like Delphi when they can't pay there own bills.
:nopity:
 
J

jmp4429

#14
qualityboi said:
ISO9001:2000 8.2.2 "The responsibilities and requirements for planning and conducting audits...shall be defined in a documented procedure."

So what your debating is that if a schedule is a documented procedure. Far as I am concerned it isn't, otherwise the standard would use the word "schedule"!

I don't think anyone questioned whether a procedure was needed, it's just that the word "plan" used in TS is vague.
 
A

Angelika

#15
dbzman said:
What is the difference between an audit plan and an audit schedule?

TS requires a plan but says nothing about a schedule.

Thanks!
I have a similiar question, however, resulting from a requirement of ISO 19011. 5.5 requires audit programme records such as audit plans and so on.

Since I am about to prepare a training, I don't want to interprete something wrong into this term, so I 'd be happy to hear your opinion on that:

What exactly is an audit programme and what an audit plan, please?

Thank you for any help!
 
R

ralphsulser

#16
Typically a written procedure for Internal Audits describes your plans, and frequencies. Your audit plan is also listed on your schedule with the projected dates,(months,weeks for the year). TS states you shall develop a schedule for planned intervals and arrangements at a minimum of once a year to the TS16949 system requirements.
See TS 8.2.2 for details. I have developed a matrix to satisfy the detailed schedule and plans of areas to be audited. There are a few posted here on the Cove that may be useful to you. Suggest you do a seach for audit schedules and or audit plans.
 
A

Angelika

#17
ralphsulser said:
Typically a written procedure for Internal Audits describes your plans, and frequencies. Your audit plan is also listed on your schedule with the projected dates,(months,weeks for the year). TS states you shall develop a schedule for planned intervals and arrangements at a minimum of once a year to the TS16949 system requirements.
See TS 8.2.2 for details. I have developed a matrix to satisfy the detailed schedule and plans of areas to be audited. There are a few posted here on the Cove that may be useful to you. Suggest you do a seach for audit schedules and or audit plans.

Thanks a lot - it took a while but now the penny has dropped! The audit programme is the procedure (process) and the audit plan is my audit schedule. How easy if you know...........:thanx: :thanx: :thanx:

P.S. I do not have to do with TS 16949 but with aviation business so I don't know details of TS 16949
 
S

shunter - 2009

#18
I am still confused on the audit plan. The way that we were using the audit plan was for the internal auditor to fill out as they were doing their desk audit. They were writing down things that they felt like they needed to follow up on while performing the audit.

I agree that the plan could be your schedule that is put together to audit all of your processes, and would love to "do away" with what we are calling our "audit plan" now. But if I do, I am confused on what the internal auditor will turn in to show as evidence that they performed the audit. Our auditor wants to know what questions were asked and what was audited. It is very time consuming to write down every question that you ask and the answers. I am having a hard time finding a good method for doing this. Does anyone have any examples of what paperwork the internal auditors turn in after completing an audit?
 
R
#19
I am still confused on the audit plan. The way that we were using the audit plan was for the internal auditor to fill out as they were doing their desk audit. They were writing down things that they felt like they needed to follow up on while performing the audit.
This is the way our audits are handled. We use an audit report template, fill in who, what, where, and the points we will be looking at in the left side and comments made during the audit in the right side. Works well for us and is very simple to use.:agree1:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#20
I am still confused on the audit plan. The way that we were using the audit plan was for the internal auditor to fill out as they were doing their desk audit. They were writing down things that they felt like they needed to follow up on while performing the audit.

I agree that the plan could be your schedule that is put together to audit all of your processes, and would love to "do away" with what we are calling our "audit plan" now. But if I do, I am confused on what the internal auditor will turn in to show as evidence that they performed the audit. Our auditor wants to know what questions were asked and what was audited. It is very time consuming to write down every question that you ask and the answers. I am having a hard time finding a good method for doing this. Does anyone have any examples of what paperwork the internal auditors turn in after completing an audit?

There is no requirement that every question be documented. That is very old, checklist mentality.

I recommend a 3 step approach.

First, the report card. Review the metrics that show how the process is performing, its criteria for effectiveness, and its objectives.

Second, audit the actual process. Review the process, flowcharts, turtles, procedures, whatever you use to describe the process.

Third, audit the links to other processes and supporting processes. Are the interactions effective? Are the outputs effective?

If you document this approach, I expect it should meet the requirements of the process approach very well, and provide a lot of value to the organization.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
S Is there a difference between "Recommendation" and an "OFI" in Internal Audit? Internal Auditing 41
P Renault CSR - Identifying the difference between an ASES and ASAS-P Audit IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
B What is the difference between Process and Compliance Audit? Internal Auditing 21
S Difference between control & audit - Cleaning manufacturing equipment Internal Auditing 5
U Difference between ISO 9001 and Internal Audit ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
C Difference between QMS Audit, Manufacturing Audit and Product Audit? General Auditing Discussions 21
I What is the Difference between Management Review and Internal Audit? Management Review Meetings and related Processes 4
W What is the difference between TYPE B and TYPE BF? IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 2
T The difference between ISO 14644-3:2005 and ISO 14644:2019 Other Medical Device Related Standards 2
Q Terminal Lugs sizes - Difference between 225/24 vs. 275/24 lugs Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
M Difference between "Production Trial Run" and "Run at Rate" IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
D Difference between Test Method Validation and Gage R&R Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 18
A What is the difference between Design Process, Process Design and Design Control? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 2
R What's the major difference between Green Belt and Black Belt in term of training and project Six Sigma 3
T Difference between a subcontractor and a supplier ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 21
H Difference between Stainless Steel 316 ASTM F899 and ASTM A276 Other Medical Device Related Standards 3
A Exact terms for a plating failure and difference between rejection rate and failure rate Manufacturing and Related Processes 9
M Difference between MSA and MSE? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
gramps What is the difference between discrete and continuous variables? Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 3
JoCam Difference between Approval and Registration - ISO 13485:2016 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
S Difference between EU-MDR Annex IX and the Annex-combo X&XI EU Medical Device Regulations 4
T ISO 17025:2017 Clause 4.2.2 - The difference between "be notified" and "be informed" ISO 17025 related Discussions 4
Jimmy123 What is the difference between Error Proofing and Controls? ISO/IATF 16949 - Control Plans FMEA and Control Plans 16
C IEC 60601-1-8, difference between table 4 and annex D IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 2
A What is the difference between Basic UDI-DI and UDI-DI? EU Medical Device Regulations 6
Q What is the difference between AS9100D 9.3.2.f and 9.3.3.a AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
M Aluminum - What is the difference between 6061-T6 and 6061-T651 (both per ASTM B211)? Manufacturing and Related Processes 4
P What is the exact difference between Risk and Opportunity in context of ISO 27001? IEC 27001 - Information Security Management Systems (ISMS) 7
S Difference between Surface Finish (Ra) and Flatness (GD&T) Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 6
O Air Flow - Which is the operational difference between LAF (vertical and horizontal) and RLAF? Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
S What the difference is between Stub Acme & Acme thread? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 1
S DO 178B - What is the difference between review and verification? Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Standards and Requirements 1
T The difference between SOP and Kaizen Standardization Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 2
K Difference between intended purpose and intended use of the device EU Medical Device Regulations 9
Q What is the difference between normal and licensed internal auditor? VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 9
J What is the difference between Process Variation and Tolerance? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 4
O Difference Between PFMEA & Control Plan FMEA and Control Plans 3
S Difference between an Advisory Notice (ISO 13485) and a Field Safety Notice? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
T Difference between "data analysis" and "management review" ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
qualprod What is the difference between 7.4.1 (2008) and 8.4.1 (2015)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
D Difference between uncertainty and expanded uncertainty of measurement General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
S EASA Part 145 - The difference between non-certifying staff and Certifying staff Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Standards and Requirements 2
S The difference between a Medical Device Accessory and Component Canada Medical Device Regulations 2
S What is the difference between a service request and a complaint? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
I What is the difference between OOS/OOT Imported Legacy Blogs 3
A Definition Difference between Quality System Procedure and Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 4
Q Difference between Monitor & Measurement ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
T QA vs. RA - The difference between QA and RA Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 6
A Difference between Discrimination and Least Count IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
K Difference between Medical Electrical Equipment and Medical Equipment System IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 3

Similar threads

Top Bottom