What is the Point of ISO Certification? Your company's success?

The Taz!

Quite Involved in Discussions
#11
SSwanson said:
The initial goal of ISO certification was (and still is) to protect consumers.
If my memory serves me. . . Toys and Heavy equipment manufacturers were the first to come under ISO Certification. I can agree with this part of the statement. This was the original intent.

But. . . ISO, like so many other legitimate attempts to regulate, control or protect, have been entered into the arena of free enterprise. If there is a buck to be made. . . either by being certified or by certifying others. . . it will be made. :soap:
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#12
Al Dyer said:
ISO/QS/TS in of themselves can be wonderful business tools. While many companies achieve compliance without registration, we never hear to much about those companies. What we hear are news releases, articles etc... about paying a company $15,000+++++ to have another resource issue a peice of paper that says they agree with you.

And then charge a yearly amount to keep agreeing with you.

My cynical self,:mg:

Al...
Even without a formal poll, I would guess a majority of our Covers, even the ones who make a living by being 3rd party auditors, have a cynical view of the 3rd party concept of auditing to a Standard. The cynicism ranges from mild (we would be merely "compliant" except for customer requirements) to outright vitriol (ISO 3rd party auditing is a scam!)

Few of us, of course, have the time or energy to take a truly dispassionate look at the certification process and determine whether it is necessary for us as customers to DEMAND formal registration by our suppliers. (I find it is always more instructive to take a look at a disputed process from more than one angle before reaching my own conclusion on its "rightness" or "wrongness")

As a customer (regardless of what I'm shopping for), my primary concern is to get a product or service which meets or exceeds my expectations about form, fit, function, value.

Thus said, my barber and my landscape maintenance crew do work I am more competent to judge than any third party. Why would I need them to additionally pay to be registered by a third party? In the case of the barber, my state says he needs a license to operate because of general health and hygiene concerns. The licensing process does NOT say whether he is a good barber or bad barber, only that he is hygienic.

In products I buy, I admit I look for a UL (Underwriter's Laboratory) label on electrical products because it gives me confidence I won't be electrocuted, but that doesn't tell me whether the DVD player is good or not or whether it is a good value, only that I won't be electrocuted.

I guess the cynicism most folks feel is that too many customers are equating an ISO label with a UL or CE label as a minimum mark of safety.

The problem is those same customers have no clear idea of what they are safe FROM.
  • from bad products?
  • from late deliveries?
  • from bad value?
  • from liability if a product fails?
  • from fraud?
So, exactly what does having a supplier formally registered to ISO9001:2000 do for a customer? I've been in business for 40 years; I've seen Quality concepts and Systems come and go. Whether or not a Supplier was formally registered or merely compliant with one of those Systems was never a determining factor for me in selecting or approving a supplier.

I almost always let the product or service provided by a supplier speak for itself. Did a supplier have a formal 5S Plan? I didn't care so long as he had a neat, clean operation when I went to visit.

Did a supplier know what a Kaizen event was? I didn't care as long as he talked about and showed off the steady improvements he'd made in his operations over time. (My barber installed a "whole shop" vacuum system - no dust raised from sweeping, no noise from a shop vac running between the chairs. Does he know Kaizen? Will I ask him? Nah! I would rather know his views on the clowns we have running for Congress and the Senate.)

Document Control? I built some birdhouses and feeders for my wife to put in our yard. I bought some plans and bills of materials at ACE Hardware. I bought the lumber and Plexiglass at Menard's Lumber; I used aspen instead of pine called for in the plans because I liked the grain pattern better. I had plenty of stainless steel fasteners and some hinges left over from previous projects, so I didn't get the ones listed in the BOM. I mixed brands of fasteners. I spilled a can of beer over the plans and ripped them as I was setting them over a sawhorse to dry, so I ended up throwing them away. I didn't keep the receipt for the lumber. The Plexiglass scratched easily from the squirrels, but it still serves a purpose of letting us know when it's time to refill the seeds.

So, no documentation. I probably should have used Lexan to reduce the amount of scratching and clouding, but neither the birds nor my wife care. The squirrels and the chipmunks don't seem to care either. My neighbor said, "Cool! Can I borrow your bandsaw to cut some wood so I can make some, too?"

Bottom line: You may pursue ISO registration because a customer demands it, but having it ONLY benefits your organization as a guideline to follow toward improvement, not your customers. The proof of the pudding is how many ISO registered organizations
  • still produce dreck,
  • still have late deliveries,
  • still need to have a Corrective Action Plan in place
because registration, Poka Yoke, Mistake Proofing, Kaizen, Corrective Action, and Continual Improvement did NOT prevent nonconformance.

The point is: Achieving a Quality Management System worthy of the name is a continual PROCESS, not a once-and-done event. ISO or TQM or Baldrige or any other 3rd party system is only a guide, not an end in itself. Organizations may be excellent with their own systems; organizations may be terrible even if they follow the letter (but not the spirit) of a 3rd party system.
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#13
SSwanson said:
The philosophy is... if a company improves productivity, they will make better widgets for a better price thus benefiting consumers.

The fact that we all have jobs because of that ISO thingy and/or companies are successful because they implement ISO principles is not, and was not, the intent of ISO.

Or am I wrong?
You are right except for the unfortunate circumstances of a company doing all that you say and still going out of business and having job losses since something changed. The something could be a new product or service that replaces the original, a change in laws especially environmental, or just bad business decisions by management.

Even quality professionals can sometimes feel that the ISO systems are overly bureaucratic, costly to maintain, etc. but in general feel that they provide good guidelines for the development of a management system. The larger question is whether a company's management is supportive and disciplined enough to meet accepted quality management standards without a third party verifying that it is done.

Just doing the right thing, whether it is registered externally or not, does not necessarily mean that a company is guaranteed success. Regardless and IMHO, the ISO standards are probably useful to any organization unless they are very mature in their entire business operations including how they treat customers and employees.

Bill Pflanz
 
G

Greg B

#14
SSwanson said:
In a thread I posted regarding the possibility of a Generic Quality Management documemtation (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=8567&page=2), Mitsu11 said, "The point of ISO [certification(sic)] is your company's success".

I don't think so.

What is the point of ISO certification?

I know I am facetious... but tell me...

Why do companies want ISO certification? To be successful?
Hi,

I placed this lesson in the 'Articles Competition’ last month (I know it isn't an article as such). It is titled 'What is a Quality Management System?' http://elsmar.com/Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2176
In it I ask the questions 'Why do we have a Safety System, Environmental System and Quality System?’ People have to break into groups and respond. You will be amazed at the responses you get from the floor, Supervisors and Management. This lesson was written for the front line operator level but I have used parts of it on higher levels with some excellent results as it gets people thinking about the system and why THEY have it. I was really looking for an answer to why is our QA System certified but not legislated yet or Safety System and Environmental Systems are not certified but are legislated.
Here is the thread with the instructions for user notes etc
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=77947#post77947


GregB
 
G

Gayle215

#15
Okay, here is my penny worth..... our main customer is Toyota and they do not require certification to ISO9001 or TS16949. To my knowledge none of the Japanese Automakers have this requirement.
The Toyota quality manual requires the same items as did the QS9000 and I'm sure they will change it to reflect the TS16949 requirements but, still won't require (at least as of today)that we obtain certification.
The fact that you have to pay to get the certification is one reason their not interested, assuming that some how that cost will get rolled into a piece price or tool.(We have 10 locations)
They follow a PDCA system and use the process approach. If there seems to be potential issues or obvious problems, they send reps to your facility to work with you to figure out how to correct it. If the quality of the product is important they'll be Big Brother rather than passing it on to a babysitter.

On the other side of the coin.... we've decided to obtain business from the BIG 3 and I don't think anyone took into consideration the certification requirement, so we have some facilities that say hey, we only do work for Toyota and the system we currently have works just fine and we're not changing it. This now creates 2 systems because regardless what TS calls out, if it's not required by Toyota and not already identified within the organization as a requirement, life goes on unchanged.

They do however, require the ISO14001 environmental cerification but, the government does has great impact in this requirement.
 
#16
Ahhhh, opinions. I love philosophy!

My $0.02:
I worked for a company whose quality system was subject to audit by several different customers/industries. In one instance, the auditors were teams from multiple companies in the same industry. There was very little oversight, credentialing, etc. Some of the auditors were slackers, some were overzealous (and I think paid by the finding), some were just plain incompetent, some had an axe to grind, etc. We had to answer every finding anyway (How do you respond when someone goes through 3 years worth of records, over 1500 pieces, and generates a two page finding because one record had one line incorrectly filled?).

My points for 3rd party registration are these:
1) Make my customer more profitable by reducing their onsite audit load
2) Make my company more profitable by having one consistent 3rd party audit team (reduce the number of man-days spent being audited and increase the number of man-days making improvements)
3) Reduce the BS by having oversight of auditors, registrars, credentialing, etc. done by an independent body (like the RAB)
4) Finally, yeah, I'll pay for that (with the savings above). John Seddon and Jim Wade would probably have a fit but: I like paying the guy who audits me; it keeps them honest. We've all heard stories but let's be fair. I want someone who has a vested interest in seeing me get registered. Do I want to trade them a check for a certificate. No. Do I want to have BS findings generated and get removed from the Approved Supplier list by some hack with no accountability. Also, no. I want a set of (somewhat) independent eyes helping me look for Opportunities For Improvement.
5) I believe with 9k2k and TS2, the days of "Say what you do, do what you say, and produce consistent mediocrity" are over. I would like my Continual Improvement activities independently certified, thank you very much.
-Icy
 
R
#17
I couldn't say it better myself. We just changed registrars and I think we found one who fits this description by Sachem. We just finished our first surveillance audit and the findings were mostly needed improvements. I really feel like we have been helped instead of frowned on by an Ultimate Auditor. Takes most of the anxiety out of audits too.
 
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