What is the root cause of problems with registration to ISO 9001

What is the root cause of problems with registration to ISO 9001.2000


  • Total voters
    18

Randy

Super Moderator
#21
Steve Prevette said:
And, as a government contractor, if the government did decide to impose ISO 9000 on us, it would indeed degenerate to a checklist mentality.
Check your contract line by line Steve, you're probably already required to do it through the back door and not the front. We had a couple of nay-sayers a few years back that said 9001 was too much and we didn't need to do it. A line-by-line check of our contract (DoD for delivery of specified services) showed every requirement of 9001 specified in the contract language (the contract did not however say 1 thing about 9001 it just stated "the contracting organization will "thus-and so"). There may have been 2 or 3 paragraphs between the "will's" or "must's" or "shall's", but they were all there.
 
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M

metselva

#22
Lack of commitment

I feel it's on the part of industries, which sees certification as a
part of their unavoidable non value added activity.

It's all about belief, understanding & commitment on behalf the top management.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#23
There are many culprits to the problem, but recently, on another thread, a Cover posted a comment that some of his colleagues wanted to use a certain registrar that, they perceived, would be a path of low resistance towards attainment of their ISO 9001 certificate. Unfortunately, as long as having an "ISO 9001" certificate is perceived as an attribute and the choice of registrars is irrelevant, the uneducated users of the certificates are unintentionally promoting incompetent and, in extreme cases, activities that some would consider fraud.
 
#24
I'm entering this fray a bit late, but how could I resist a good thread?

Others have already stated that all four alternatives apply to varying degrees, and I agree. I must say though, that I think the fourth alternative (Registered companies don't have the right attitude...) is the major factor. So what would the correct attitude be?

That (as usual) depends, but I think too many companies head for certification without having thought much about why...This is likley to create a situation where several different opinions about the "why" exists within the company. End result? People will pull in different directions, and we all know the result of that.

/Claes
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#25
Purpose for ISO 9001, etc.

Reading these posts is interesting. I am both an auditor and consultant in all the major automotive related standards. All of the poll questions are problems of course, but I think the main question is why a company gets certified in the first place. The primary reason is a customer required it. But the superior reason is the company wants to benefit. If implemented properly, the ISO 9001 process approach is almost magic. It can improve and reconstruct every single process and subprocess in a company. But only if it is understood and implemented. Unfortunately, most company managment, and even many auditors and consultants don't get the picture, so it de-evolves into a series of checklists and so forth. It is not about process maps and procedures, though they may be useful. It is all about tuning a process to make it optimal. And that is a good thing, regardless of what one's opinion might be of the various standards.
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#27
Steve Prevette said:
Well, I try to do my part. I definitely squelch any ISO 9000 talk at my place of work. Within ASQ I post my arguments against ISO 9000. Now, I have to be somewhat wary in two of my ASQ roles - discussion board moderator and section chair. In those roles, I do not want to prevent discussions of ISO 9000 or presentations by pro-ISO 9000 folks. But I can still demonstrate a questioning attitude.
Steve, you appear to be a bright guy, but this comment is most puzzling. I can understand someone arguing that ISO 9001 (TS, QS, etc.) is not necessarily beneficial. I agree it is no magic bullet.

But to argue against it is puzzling. I know many, many companies who have worked hard to implement a very beneficial quality system, based on ISO 9001 principles. Further, ISO is just common sense codified into a standard. I know companies that are not certified, which have systems built on the same general principles. The poll results so far overwhelmingly say that they feel they have received value. Finally, the standard doesn't do much violence to Dr. Deming.

What's the beef?
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#28
Allen M. said:
The issues we've ran into was the initial cost of implementing the QMS and the old "What will be our ROI".

As far as the ISO system it's not clear i.e. seven people can read a section and each walk away with a different view on what to implement.
During my ISO registrars interview I found auditors had different views and ideals on certain ISO requirements i.e. 7.3, 8.4, etc and had their own ideals on how an QMS should be implemented.

I think alot of work still needs to be done with ISO 9001:2000 to make it clearer to allow for a better translation/understanding and more useful to a wide range/size of businesses.
I think it is easy to get a good ROI on implementing ISO, even in a smaller company. It is a matter of implementing a smart, beneficial system, not one overly focused on compliance.

As far as auditors, well there is variation. I have seen good auditors, consultants and quality professionals, and I've seen weak ones. But, every other field is the same. It is part of making good selections.

But the key is both your team, and the registrar have to be focused on getting value and benefit. That is more important than focus on mere compliance. There is little return at that level.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#29
SailorWard said:
I work for a large corporation that has mandated ISO 9001 registration for many of the operating divisions. I'm in one of those divisions and lead the ISO "process." We registered because we were told to not because our division management wants us to or is really trying to get anything out of it.

Yes, there are a couple managers that really believe--or would like to really believe if they had time to do so. But, overall. . . . nadda.

And our certificate hangs in prominent display in the Trophy Case.

I have very nice name brand exercise equipment sitting prominently in my home office. It is really beautiful to look at. Unfortunately, I don't use it much and I've grown a little chubby... is it the fault of the exercise equipment? ...or has the owner failed to apply himself to making his "health process" effective? Can I blame the exercise equip manufacturer?
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#30
Allen M. said:
Working in a small company that is going through the ISO process, I would have to say that that ISO 9001:2000 is flawed when it comes to implementing it into a small businesses. We were originally asked to get ISO certified by our customer, but management saw a great opportunity to implement a solid QMS as well.

Our quality system is supported by management ( They have stated time and time again we want a system that works and not just a cert), their involved in every aspect of the QMS from approving documents to actually giving training, but the implementation cost, man hours, training are hard on a small business.

Our certification partner is great and is willing to work with us to ensure we're have a solid ISO system in place as well, our pre-assessment auditor is well versed in ISO 9001:2000 and looks at the system to ensure it's working based on objective evidence.

I think that someone should write an ISO standard for small businesses maybe title it: Mini-ISO 9001:2000 :biglaugh:
It shouldn't be that time consuming for a small company. A quality manual and a dozen or so procedure/SOP/Work Instructions can often suffice, if the company processes are not too complex. Are you perhaps over-implementing it?
 
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