What is the scope for "Total Numbers of Employees on site" per ISO/TS 16949 ?

Filip M.

Involved In Discussions
#1
Hi, total numbers of employees on site - ISO/TS 16949. Is that including the security personnel, kitchen staff, cleaning staff, ... or only those people related (direct/indirect) for the realizing of the product. Is there a clear definition in the standard or in the sanctioned interpretations of ISO/TS ? We have a discussion with the auditor because we didn't take those people into account.
Thanks in advance for a reply.
Grtz. Filip
 
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Filip M.

Involved In Discussions
#3
Re: Total Numbers of Employees on site - ISO/TS 16949

Thanks Helmut. For me it's still not clear . All persons ? Yes tempworkers if they help to realize the product but cleaning staff that clean desks ? Kitchen staff ? If I'm looking to the BELAC 2-312 Rev 3-2011 guidelines based on the ISO17021:2011 stands "Effective Number of Personnel" The effective number of personnel consists of all full time personnel involved within the scope of cerification including those working on each shift as well as non permanent personnel. In that phrase, you see stands the scope of the certificate and eg. cleaning desks isn't mentioned in the scope (cleaning staff). Otherwise if you are looking in the rules 4th edition of ISO/TS, in ? 5.2.h last sentence stands support activity dedicated to automotive. I know, it's only applicable for a portion, but here it's clearly defined those that are working direct or indirect for the automotive scope.
 
Last edited:
L

lk2012

#4
Hi Filip,
an external Automotive auditor would most likely be asking for the headcount in operations related to the product.
Kitchen staff and cleaners may be excluded. In short, if you walk the whole process your product is going through, you'll see which areas are involved and which are not.
Temporary staff / contractors / apprentices etc in these areas would then be included.
hope this helps
Lil
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#5
Re: Total Numbers of Employees on site - ISO/TS 16949

Thanks Helmut. For me it's still not clear . All persons ? Yes tempworkers if they help to realize the product but cleaning staff that clean desks ? Kitchen staff ? If I'm looking to the BELAC 2-312 Rev 3-2011 guidelines based on the ISO17021:2011 stands "Effective Number of Personnel" The effective number of personnel consists of all full time personnel involved within the scope of cerification including those working on each shift as well as non permanent personnel. In that phrase, you see stands the scope of the certificate and eg. cleaning desks isn't mentioned in the scope (cleaning staff). Otherwise if you are looking in the rules 4th edition of ISO/TS, in ? 5.2.h last sentence stands support activity dedicated to automotive. I know, it's only applicable for a portion, but here it's clearly defined those that are working direct or indirect for the automotive scope.
I guess I would have to say if you want a precise interpretation of how your registrar will apply the passages you cite, you should review that with a manager at your registrar. I don't see the passages you cited as changing the number more than a couple people at most companies. Unless you have a very large kitchen staff. the other examples, with people in the automotive scope vs nonautomotive scope... there have been a lot of changes and restrictions. So, I will defer that to your registrar.

The general guidance we are given is: "that it includes all persons, including temp workers." Exempt persons claimed have to be justified.
 
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