What is the TS 16949 Stage 1 Audit Requirement on Internal Audit?

#11
Because you still have to met the requirements of 8.2.2 and show enough implementation of the audit program. One audit isn't sufficient to meet the 'status and importance' aspects nor to demonstrate effective implementation of audits.

One system wide audit might 'cut it' for a CB auditor, but it would be a big risk, IMHO. Furthermore, one audit is only going to give you a snapshot of the system at that time, and to gain confidence that the system is being implemented and confirm that there are no obvious 'holes' for the CB auditor to find, so more audits will be required.

It occurs to me also that even if one system wide audit was done, there's still going to be a need for follow-up audits to verify closure of findings, so which ever way you slice it, one audit isn't enough............
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#12
If they don't specify, why doesn't one audit meet the requirements?
Hello Potdar,

There are two groups of organizations with respect to their view of internal audits:
  • Those that do audits because they have to.
  • Those that audit because they believe that it can a lot of value to the organization.
If you develop a system based on the "bare minimum", that's probably all you're going to get out of it.
If you develop a system with the right intent and the right reason, there are many benefits to be realized. And that of course applies to an audit program as well.

Stijloor.
 
P

potdar

#14
Believe me, I am on your side of the table. Just playing the devil's advocate here.:notangel:

Because you still have to met the requirements of 8.2.2 and show enough implementation of the audit program. One audit isn't sufficient to meet the 'status and importance' aspects nor to demonstrate effective implementation of audits.

...so which ever way you slice it, one audit isn't enough............
Maybe one audit is not sufficient. My query is "How many audits are sufficient?"
 
P

potdar

#15
There are two groups of organizations with respect to their view of internal audits:
  • Those that do audits because they have to.
  • Those that audit because they believe that it can a lot of value to the organization.
True.

There are also two groups of CBs.
  • Those who are ever ready to "cut it" as Andy puts it. - a large majority.
  • Those who ar not.
The root discussion here is what is the IATF's take on what these CBs should be doing rather than what the organisation under scrutiny should be doing. The "Rules" talk about activities of the CBs necessary for them to get recognition - not one step down.

Darkafar is bothered only because he happens to be under scruiny, and hence an affected party of the interpretation. Many of the other rules, he simply wouldnt care about.

I'm sure he knows what group of organisations he resides in and take a decision to suit himself. He could even fake the audits if he wishes to. I believe he wouldnt be in this thread if he wished to do that.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#16
Believe me, I am on your side of the table. Just playing the devil's advocate here.:notangel:

Maybe one audit is not sufficient. My query is "How many audits are sufficient?"
A sufficient number to demonstrate the effective implementation of the quality management system and its processes. This will of course vary for different organizations.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#17
Believe me, I am on your side of the table. Just playing the devil's advocate here.:notangel:



Maybe one audit is not sufficient. My query is "How many audits are sufficient?"

In my earlier post, I indicated there are times where an auditor could accept 1 cycle of audits, to pass the requirement at a stage 1. The better answer, and the point I think Andy is trying to make, is that the correct number is whatever it takes for you to show you have implemented an effective new system. There is no magic number and auditor will look for.

You will have corrective actions from the first audit, these need to be closed and verified. The audit results should show that the same is implemented and reasonably effective. However many it takes to do that - 1 cycle, 1.25, 1.5, 2 cycles...
 
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