What Next For ISO 9001?

[Simon Timperley]

Hello Sydney,

Sydney
"but I can tell you that some organizations would fudge the data so much it would make Enron?s accountants envious or blush."

Enron's unethical behaviour was eventually discovered and they received the ultimate punishment.

Sydney
"In my opinion, the type of stats/data that Simon is suggesting would not necessarily improve the process, but would provide a little bit of transparency for the stakeholders."

Transparency would happen simply by turning the spotlight on this information and I believe that some self and external driven improvement would follow even within organisations made entirely of fudge. I'm sure that a global raising of standards in this area would be welcomed by all.

Sydney
"Subsequent scenarios might develop before doomsday. One that I hope for is the scenario that Industry realizes that certain players (including customers, suppliers, registrars, consultants, accreditation bodies) in the field are serious and can be trusted."

I have never been a customer of your organisations services therefore I have absolutely no idea how ethical you are. The fact that your organisation is Accredited does if I search really deeply give me an iota of extra confidence. However, I'm afraid without the ability to really differentiate the good from the bad and the ugly within your industry the broad and dirty brush will continue to paint a large and murky picture.

Off the top of your head would your organisation make a stand and put forward this type of information voluntarily (I would definitely trust you a lot more) or would it have to be mandated by the Accreditation Bodies first.

I think that every ISO 9000 certificate holding member of this forum should swap to DNV if you agree? That is provided the information makes good reading?

Thanks very much for your input Sydney I really appreciate you coming back on this issue.

Regards,
Simon

 

[Sidney Vianna]

How can I see transparency?

Hi Simon, still there?

Had you seen this interesting article, available at ***DEAD LINK REMOVED*** ?

The old age question:

How to reconcile transparency and condidentiality expectations?

 

[Simon Timperley]

Hi Sydney,

Sorry I must have missed this for a while. Anyway I've read the article now and it does present some interesting and innovative ideas for addressing what is a very difficult if not insurmountable problem. I like the idea of the online ISO blacklist and also the publishing of Certification Body performance data. Best of all how about the compulsory rotation of certification body every few years.

Although there are no easy answers it's an important issue that we should keep talking about, but as the guy says in the article until there is a collective will to achieve higher standards by all of the parties concerned, nothing will change. No matter how much 'the customer' complains.

Regards,
Simon

 

[Craig H.]

Hi Simon, still there?

Had you seen this interesting article, available at ***DEAD LINK REMOVED*** ?

The old age question:

How to reconcile transparency and condidentiality expectations?

Sidney

Thanks for an interesting article.

One of the ideas presented is to change registration organizations every 3 years, as well as rotating individual auditors for survailence audits. While I can appreciate the logic behind this, in our situation I would be worried about having auditors that would accept some of the methods inherent in our business.

By way of a short explanation, just let me say that we process clay on a continuous basis, and the process is not unlike pouring water from one container to another, in sequence, with processing happening while the pouring occurs. The vessels rarely entirely empty, and there is not specific identification (like a lot number) assigned until the process is finished. The processes are segregated by grade, though.

Some (even very experienced) people from outside the industry have a hard time grasping how we know material in a particular tank or silo is good, because of the constant mixing.

I really don't want to spend a half day trying to make yet another new auditor understand how we do this. I would rather have them help me improve on what has been a very good system. Our present auditor has no problems telling us when he sees something that he thinks is out of compliance, and I think that is both the trick and the rub - it all comes down to the individual auditors. Once we found one that really helped us it would take a lot to make us switch.

Just my 2 cents.

Craig

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Craig,

Excellent point.

I fully agree with you. That is another example why the relationship between the Registrar and the certified organization is a long term one. Continuity and consistency are KEY expectations by the certified organizations. Issues like that NEED to be discused PRIOR to a decision in terms of registrar selection.

Since ISO 9000 is being trivialized so it can be commercialized more easily, I have noticed that some Registrars business models have changed drastically in the last 5-6 years. Several registrars are now abusing the free-lancing concept where they hire anybody who has the card to do audits on their behalf, with no concern about indoctrinating that individual in the registrar's protocols, MO and interpretations....

It takes much more than a card to make a good lead auditor, just like it takes more than a driver's license to make someone a good driver.

So why do some Registrars use free-lancing auditors? It is cheaper!

With the "commoditization" of ISO 9000 certification, costs are becoming more and more the decisive factor in terms of Registrar selection. But like everything else in life, the old cliche' applies: Most of the time, you get what you pay for....

 

[Ilias]

John Seddon

I have just posted this message on another thread, and I am not sure as to the validity of doing this. However, it is about the future of ISO 9000. I have an issue with the decline in certification in the UK and US, and I cannot imagine that the principles of ISO 9000 were meant to just be applicable to a tiny minority of organisations. Whilst there is work for us in helping organisations attain and maintain ISO, for what purpose?

Here in the UK there has been some noise about ISO 9000 last year, but it seems to have gone quiet as to the transition to 2000. What I think the posts raise for me is the long term future for ISO as a system to improve management competence and ultimately really have an effect on industry.

A report has just come out in the UK where the abilities of management is still seen as poor. In addition manufacturing is still in decline. So what has ISO 9000 been able to contribute to improve the situation?

There is a talk by John Seddon on the 23rd of March in Aberdeen. This is a discussion with the Chairman of UKAS (the UK body governing accreditation), chaired by the Director General of the IQA (Institute of Quality Assurance). The discussion is about the pros and cons of quality certification in the wider context of quality improvement.

I have looked at John Seddon's website at www.lean-service.com and he has quite some to say about ISO and other types of standards. I have not read his book, The case against ISO 9000, but it gives a flavour of his stance.

I will try and get some feedback from the meeting, but I am not sure if I can go. Anyone on this list attending?

Ilias

 

[Peter Fraser]

I will try and get some feedback from the meeting, but I am not sure if I can go. Anyone on this list attending?

Ilias

Ilias

We are co-sponsoring the event - hope you can make it! If not, I'll try to summarise a report back for you.

 

[Govind]

What will be the next major change to ISO 9001?

I was searching Cove for ISO 9000 assessments by a Scoring approach. I stumbled on this interesting thread. There seem to Scoring approach as one of the option discussed in this thread.

ISO 9001: 2000 advocates management by fact and measurement of processes.

Why the scoring approach to ISO assessment is not popular? Does any one see a “Staged approach” of maturity assessment as a possible next step to ISO 9001 changes?

Regards,
Govind.

 

[Marc]

Blast from the Past - Contemporary comments?