What QMS Internal Audits must cover and ISO 9001

zac2944

Involved In Discussions
I've been challanged several times by my Registrar to show where I've covered specific "shalls" from the standard in my internal audits.

For example: Show me where you have audited 6.1b "The organization shall determine and provide the resources needed to enhance customer satisfaction...".

So unless I have a checklist item for each "shall", it becomes very challanging to show evidence. My Registrar say sthe basis for this is from 8.2.2 requirement to internal audit "to the requirements of this International Standard".

The most value we get from internal audits with when we focus on a process, and use process performance data to focus our audits on areas where the process has known weaknesses. I find it difficult to do this and still hit each and every 9001/14001 "shall" in the process. To make it work I have to audit my audits, and track what clauses have and have not been covered, then make sure we hit them all by the end of the year. We have been registered for 14 years now and almost never have findinges when we audit to the standard, but it makes our Registrar happy.

I'd like to hear how/if others meet this requirement and still manage a lean and value-added internal audit program.
 

Big Jim

Admin
I share Colin's confusion.

I am currently seeking an AS9100 internal auditor course for some of my people. I expect them to return from that course competent to conduct internal audits in accordance with AS9100 clause 8.2.2 in its entirety including the bit about determining if the system conforms to the requirements of the standard. Otherwise I shall be asking for my money back.

I'm afraid, Colin, that your current location, through no fault of your own, appears to be somewhere between a rock and a hard place. Good luck extracting yourself.

Like you, I don't see how you can get around that requirement in 8.2.2 about auditing to the requirements of the standard.

Colin,

Have you asked IRCA how they can reconcile their request with 8.2.2?
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
Like you, I don't see how you can get around that requirement in 8.2.2 about auditing to the requirements of the standard.

Colin,

Have you asked IRCA how they can reconcile their request with 8.2.2?

Hi Jim - I certainly plan to do so today - the course is being witnessed today so I intend 'discussing' both the issues of auditing to the standard and the re-issue of the criteria 2 days before the course being assessed (without prior notification). I will update tonight.
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
<snip> .. As an aside, is there any requirement in either 9k, 19001 or TS16949 to have formal auditing training? What I mean do you have to have a certificate or evidence of being trained by someone who has the qualifications (bits of expensive paper) to train auditors?

No, there is no specific requirement for auditor training - just like all other tasks, it is about demonstrating competence - part of which is often a requirement to be trained in the basic techniques. When I look at a company's internal audits I am looking to see how well they are completed, not how impressive their certificate of training is.
 
C

ChrissieO

No, there is no specific requirement for auditor training - just like all other tasks, it is about demonstrating competence - part of which is often a requirement to be trained in the basic techniques. When I look at a company's internal audits I am looking to see how well they are completed, not how impressive their certificate of training is.

I thought that TS auditors had to be formally trained.

With reference to the OP, if the internal auditor does not know the standard how are they expected to align non-conformances to the standard, identify dominant clauses etc.

As resource has dwindled in many Quality Groups, it is quite often that there is only an internal auditor conducting the audit and there would be no Lead Auditor involved so where is the knowledge of the standard supposed to come from ......................or am I missing something.

Colin as you know, we audit against our processes but still refer any findings in alignment to which ever standard is applicable and I expect our internal auditors to have a knowledge of the standards.

Chrissie

PS..................not that it's my problem any more lol:notme:
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
I thought that TS auditors had to be formally trained.

Training requirements for ISO/TS 16949:2009 Internal Auditors are contained in certain Customer Specific Requirements. Ford Motor Company is one of them.

http ://www .iatfglobaloversight. org/docs/FordspecTS2ndAugust2009.pdf - DEAD 404 LINK UNLINKED

Look at 4.39
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
I thought that TS auditors had to be formally trained....

As resource has dwindled in many Quality Groups, it is quite often that there is only an internal auditor conducting the audit and there would be no Lead Auditor involved so where is the knowledge of the standard supposed to come from ......................or am I missing something.

All auditors must be competent. Trainiing would the most common way to achieve that. Highly advisable. I still see lots of internal audits that do not understand a good process approach.

To be deemed competent, at minimum it would be expected that each auditor knows the standard and requirements. Not just the Lead Auditor.

And, as Stijloor indicated Ford and some other customers have defined specific training requirements.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
I've been challanged several times by my Registrar to show where I've covered specific "shalls" from the standard in my internal audits.

For example: Show me where you have audited 6.1b "The organization shall determine and provide the resources needed to enhance customer satisfaction...".

So unless I have a checklist item for each "shall", it becomes very challanging to show evidence. My Registrar say sthe basis for this is from 8.2.2 requirement to internal audit "to the requirements of this International Standard".

The most value we get from internal audits with when we focus on a process, and use process performance data to focus our audits on areas where the process has known weaknesses. I find it difficult to do this and still hit each and every 9001/14001 "shall" in the process. To make it work I have to audit my audits, and track what clauses have and have not been covered, then make sure we hit them all by the end of the year. We have been registered for 14 years now and almost never have findinges when we audit to the standard, but it makes our Registrar happy.

I'd like to hear how/if others meet this requirement and still manage a lean and value-added internal audit program.

I don't agree with that registrar's request.

When I audit a process, I try to audit all the relevant shalls related to that process. I will consider whether the resources I am observing appear to be adequate. I will observe housekeeping and suitability of the equipment. However, there not be any specific notes in my audit ppapers that I reviewed resources and found them suitable. There may not be specific evidence that I did. However, if I see a gap, my notes and findings will certainly address that.

(Although for internal audits, I have built a lot more detail into the checksheet system that I train auditors to use. It gives more guidance on that kind of detail.).
 

zac2944

Involved In Discussions
I don't agree with that registrar's request. When I audit a process, I try to audit all the relevant shalls related to that process.......There may not be specific evidence that I did.

I was using the same method, and as you describe in some of your white papers the audits have been adding real value, but now my registrar and new auditor are pushing to see specific evidence for each clause. I need to bring this up to my registrar and try to get clarification. If I hear anything I'll report back.

I intend 'discussing' both the issues of auditing to the standard... I will update tonight.

Thanks Colin. I'm looking forward to hearing what you find.
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
I've been challanged several times by my Registrar to show where I've covered specific "shalls" from the standard in my internal audits.

For example: Show me where you have audited 6.1b "The organization shall determine and provide the resources needed to enhance customer satisfaction...".

So unless I have a checklist item for each "shall", it becomes very challenging to show evidence. My Registrar say the basis for this is from 8.2.2 requirement to internal audit "to the requirements of this International Standard".

The most value we get from internal audits with when we focus on a process, and use process performance data to focus our audits on areas where the process has known weaknesses. I find it difficult to do this and still hit each and every 9001/14001 "shall" in the process. To make it work I have to audit my audits, and track what clauses have and have not been covered, then make sure we hit them all by the end of the year. We have been registered for 14 years now and almost never have findings when we audit to the standard, but it makes our Registrar happy.

I'd like to hear how/if others meet this requirement and still manage a lean and value-added internal audit program.

Here is a post + attachments that I posted a few years back. The process matrix shows how the clauses (shall's) connect with each of the identified processes. The example makes references to previous standards, but you'll get the idea. No need to audit every "shall" and you can show the auditor that none of the requirements have been skipped.

Good luck with it!
 
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