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What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2015 Standard?

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Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#101
#101
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

somerqc said:
Patricia,

I have been looking at your flowcharts for ideas on how to improve our documentation of processes (we are implementing an ERP system that will require that I update our manual).

Although it seems that at "30,000 ft" all the requirement are covered, I have never worked in an environment where the "busy-ness" of the flowcharts would meet the intended target (except for the people responsible for the quality system). Like I have mentioned, there are many great things about your flowcharts, but, how could an average (non-systems) person be able to follow them and use them?

Do you offer "layered" versions of these flowcharts where the floor worker/ desk person gets a very basic version and the Quality Manager or MR get the fully detailed versions? I could see that working very well so that the flowchart documentation meets the needs of the audience.
Click to expand...
Hi Somerqc,

The flow charts posted here are created using MSVisio, and utilize the layering feature which allows you to view/print/not print...or "not view"/print/not print options, etc.
As such, details like the ISO 9000, ISO 14001 or Customer-specific requirements, or even the inputs and outputs can be omitted either from viewing, or printing...and so are readily adaptable for many audiences.

Typically, the full-blown comprehensive version is used by the Document Champion, and Internal/External auditors.

Also, keep in mind that usually only the Management Team are expected to know and understand the 12 Key processes. Subordinate employees, while they might be exposed to an undetailed version of an SOP to provide them with a frame of reference, or a look at the bigger picture of the process on which they might have an impact, they would typically be working from Work Instructions...or in some cases, Forms that have the instructions built into them.

For example, one of the Key Process of the Management System is Purchasing and Materials Management (P&MM). In training the Shipper/Receiver, it may or may not be necessary to expose him/her to the P&MM procedure. The attached Work Instruction (Receiving and Inspection of Incoming Direct Materials) represents one of the sub-processes performed by the Shipper/Receiver, and starts out by establishing it as part of the P&MM procedure, and further links it to other Work Instructions as applicable.

I've created all kinds of variations of these flow-charts...they're easy to edit/adapt to your audience. Using MSVision gives you a lot of options.

Patricia Ravanello
 

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palmtree

#103
#103
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Hi,

Preventive action is a good thing. As a company we have put lots of work in in the past to make things right in the first place and it pays off.

But I do find it odd to have

8.5.3 e)"Reviewing the effectiveness of the preventative action taken"

Ok so we have looked ahead and identified problems and if something does happen we have the corrective action procedures to put it right.

So why waste time reviewing nothing has happened, unless it is to confirm how good you were at planning in the first place!

Ian
 
howste

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#104
#104
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

palmtree said:
Ok so we have looked ahead and identified problems and if something does happen we have the corrective action procedures to put it right.

So why waste time reviewing nothing has happened, unless it is to confirm how good you were at planning in the first place!

Ian
Click to expand...
I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. If I use the same logic, corrective actions shouldn't be reviewed for effectiveness either, because if the problem happens again we would find it again and go through the same (ineffective) corrective action process again. This is one of the great weaknesses I already see in many systems that I audit - they keep fighting the same fires over and over.

Why would you not want to confirm that what you implemented was really effective?
 
R

RonaldoCGQ

#105
#105
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Hi!
In my blog also approached this subject, and I believe that a larger approach, maybe a coalition, with to 9004:2009 it would be arrival very well for the Quality Administration.
 
Sidney Vianna

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#106
#106
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

RonaldoCGQ said:
Hi!
In my blog also approached this subject, and I believe that a larger approach, maybe a coalition, with to 9004:2009 it would be arrival very well for the Quality Administration.
Click to expand...
Then, you are going against the stream. Up until the 2000 version, ISO 9001 and 9004 were a "consistent pair", with simultaneous releases. Now, the TC 176 decided to "separate" the two documents. They are no longer a "pair". ISO 9004:2009 does not even include the text of 9001 any longer.
 
V

Vic de Beer

#107
#107
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

howste said:
Why would you not want to confirm that what you implemented was really effective?
Click to expand...
:2cents:
I can understand your logic, an I agree.
If your corrective action, as an example, was to replace a wheel on the car... the result, ... the car run with the new wheel.:notme:
Verify it a few weeks later... you may find that the wheel you used as a replacement may not have worked as well as you would have liked, and you now have to replace the wheelbearings.:mg:
What I'm trying to say is: you have to verify that the action taken is effective and more than just a "patch job":bigwave:
 
R

ralphsulser

#108
#108
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

There is no need for an ISO9001:2014 revision because the History channel has been documenting the end of the world on Dec.21, 2012 the past couple weeks. :D
 
R

RonaldoCGQ

#109
#109
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Yes, I know. But I believe that to ISO 9001 it should adopt present concepts in the 9004, or that it would owe if it rules for the excellence... A lot of organizations still use her just as a marketing tool, when it should be much more than that...
 
V

Vic de Beer

#110
#110
Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

ralphsulser said:
There is no need for an ISO9001:2014 revision because the History channel has been documenting the end of the world on Dec.21, 2012 the past couple weeks. :D
Click to expand...
May be so, but if following ISO, at least the end will be audited, documented, reviewed, commented on etc etc.... and orderly ;)
 
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