What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2015 Standard?

[John Broomfield]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Maybe, so you'd agree that some work is needed on 8.2.2?

Andy,

Surely, by studying the standard auditees and auditors are competent enough to apply 4.1c to clarify the requirements for any process including internal auditing without the standard repeating this requirement in 8.2.2 and every other process?

If not that could be a 6.2.1 nonconformity.

I am not sure if rewriting 8.2.2 would improve understanding of the need to take a risk-based approach to scheduling audits (as recommended by 5.2.1h of ISO 19011).

Generally speaking though repetition is to be avoided in system documents to avoid waste and for ease of upkeep.

Perhaps we need wider understanding and application of TC176's interpretive guidelines and ISO 19011 cited as a normative reference to ISO 9001:2014?

John

 

[AndyN]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Andy,

Surely, by studying the standard auditees and auditors are competent enough to apply 4.1c to clarify the requirements for any process including internal auditing without the standard repeating this requirement in 8.2.2 and every other process?

If not that could be a 6.2.1 nonconformity.

I am not sure if rewriting 8.2.2 would improve understanding of the need to take a risk-based approach to scheduling audits (as recommended by 5.2.1h of ISO 19011).

Generally speaking though repetition is to be avoided in system documents to avoid waste and for ease of upkeep.

Perhaps we need wider understanding and application of TC176's interpretive guidelines and ISO 19011 cited as a normative reference to ISO 9001:2014?

John

In practice, John? H*ll will freeze over first!

Guidance is never read - how many companies actually spent the money to read it? How many auditor courses (and course criteria) use it. ISO 19011 is so far skewed towards external audits, it's frightening for newbie internal auditors to comprehend! There's also a principle here. Why should someone have to buy guidance documents? They build notes right in, why not have them in 8.2.2 or other places? It can't be for increasing revenue purposes, they don't sell that many copies of 9004 or 19011!

 

[JaneB]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Perhaps we need wider understanding and application of TC176's interpretive guidelines and ISO 19011 cited as a normative reference to ISO 9001:2014?

John

John, I agree with you about avoiding repetition as a good principle. But I'd definitely NOT want to see ISO 19011 cited as a normative reference. No way. Not unless it were extensively changed, to remove its almost total bias toward third-party auditing! I fully agree with Andy on this - it is so far skewed toward external audits.

Yes, there is quite a lot of good stuff in it of value for internal auditors. But there's also a lot that not only isn't useful for them, but is downright confusing. And it takes a good deal of knowledge and experience to be able to sort what is, from what isn't.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

As I mentioned in the discussion of the ISO 9001:2008 draft documents, the TC176 membership should be ashamed for not addressing this issue, during the last review cycle of ISO 9001. One of the goals of the amendment was to CLARIFY the (dubious?/unclear) requirements of ISO 9001:2000. If the TC 176 does not know that the application of preventive action is a BIG problem in the real world, someone should call them back to Earth.

I agree 2008 for me was a missed opportunity and, altogether, the workings of ISO are a bit of a concern to me. Nevertheless we do have to accept that the 2008 edition is in line with the brief the working group was given - i.e. no substantive changes.

So all we have to question is why the brief was as limited as it is. I haven't seen the new work item proposal for '2014' but if I get sight of it you'll know here!

 

[Bill Goss]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

I suggest ISO 9001:2014, if it really is issued in 2014, be beefed up to include some important requirements such as what we see in ISO 13485 and AS9100. As it is, it is too minimalistic in my opinion. Bill Goss

 

[somashekar]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Talking about mutually beneficial supplier relationship as one of the principles of quality, talking about input and output, talking about feedback and continual improvement, talking about PDCA, the process approach ..... ALL BIG AND NICE TO HEAR,
I would love to see the purchasing clause have a complete closed loop defined in the purchase process, which has supplier payments mentioned

 

[howste]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

I suggest ISO 9001:2014, if it really is issued in 2014, be beefed up to include some important requirements such as what we see in ISO 13485 and AS9100. As it is, it is too minimalistic in my opinion. Bill Goss

Which specific requirements would you suggest?

 

[Bill Goss]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Interesting ... I never thought about the whole loop before, I mean, there is so much to purchasing outside of the actual goods arriving on time, in proper condition and meeting the purchase order requirements. There is the packing slip of shipping materials (records), invoicing, communications, RTV process, payments made and payments received, funds reconciliation, and more. Good thought! Very good thought indeed, I will remember this and add it to my procedures for my clients because it has value. Thank you!

 

[Bill Goss]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Actually, now that I think of it, not only should the purchasing clause include the "whole loop" including packaging and shipping paperwork, invoicing, etc. I think the same should go for the customer purchases as well. Let's include payments received and processed properly from the customer and anything else that could have an effect on what the customer thinks about our organization in our delivery and post delivery processes, including accounting, record keeping, communications, etc.

 

[samsung]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

6 Resource management (ISO 9001:2008)

In my view, this clause needs to be re-structured to incorporate identification, possibly documentation and effective management of
a) Financial resources
b) Technology & knowledge,
c) Natural resources forming part of the process inputs, in particular &
d) other 'stakeholder controlled' resources

These resources are as significant as (may be more than) any other resource like Human and infrastructure like Equipment, means of communication etc. etc and without having access to or failing to administer effective control over such resources, I doubt, if an organization can truly ensure meeting the following intent of clause # 6.1:

The organization shall determine and provide the resources needed
a) to implement and maintain the quality management system and continually improve its effectiveness, and
b) to enhance customer satisfaction by meeting customer requirements.

I would like to hear what other members have to say.

Thanks