What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2015 Standard?

[samsung]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Actually, the concept of internal customers is mentioned in a number of ISO documents and writings. Many internal processes have contact only with internal customers, not with with the external, ultimate customer.

That's true Helmut but does it actually carry the meaning it's often understood. In the absence of a clear definition with examples, it is taken to mean as employees or 'internal service providers' which, in my opinion, ISO 9001 never intended or expressed. I do agree to your statement that many of the internal processes don't have direct contact with external customers yet they need to focus on 'this customer' only because it's the one who brings revenue to make their existence possible.

At the best what the standard refers as 'internal customers' are either the 'business partners' or the members of the subsidiaries of the same parental organization whom the organization supplies its products. Technically they are customers in one sense, but not external to the organization.

It doesn't seem to be reasonable & beneficial as well when the employees spend valuable resources in satisfying each other through hypothetical role playing? In a Customer Focused organization, everyone must hold that there's only one customer who buys our products and the ultimate aim of the organization should be to achieve satisfaction of this customer, (not each others' within the internal boundaries.). However, I strongly believe that the employees must treat one another with great deal of respect and dignity teaming up to achieve the ultimate organizational goal of 'customer satisfaction'.

I very much wish that in the next version, the standard must clarify the term in view of its perceived dangers particularly when it's misunderstood/ misinterpreted to the extent that people start focusing so much on one another that the real customer gets out of focus and the basic intent of the standard gets defeated.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

That's true Helmut but does it actually carry the meaning it's often understood. In the absence of a clear definition with examples, it is taken to mean as employees or 'internal service providers' which, in my opinion, ISO 9001 never intended or expressed. I do agree to your statement that many of the internal processes don't have direct contact with external customers yet they need to focus on 'this customer' only because it's the one who brings revenue to make their existence possible.

At the best what the standard refers as 'internal customers' are either the 'business partners' or the members of the subsidiaries of the same parental organization whom the organization supplies its products. Technically they are customers in one sense, but not external to the organization.

It doesn't seem to be reasonable & beneficial as well when the employees spend valuable resources in satisfying each other through hypothetical role playing? In a Customer Focused organization, everyone must hold that there's only one customer who buys our products and the ultimate aim of the organization should be to achieve satisfaction of this customer, (not each others' within the internal boundaries.). However, I strongly believe that the employees must treat one another with great deal of respect and dignity teaming up to achieve the ultimate organizational goal of 'customer satisfaction'.

I very much wish that in the next version, the standard must clarify the term in view of its perceived dangers particularly when it's misunderstood/ misinterpreted to the extent that people start focusing so much on one another that the real customer gets out of focus and the basic intent of the standard gets defeated.

No, it misses the point of a process approach. An internal customer is the receiver of the output of an internal process. The process approach is a series of processes, handing outputs to the next process, to the internal customer, who adds further value, before handing it to the next internal process. While each process must keep an eye on the external customer, many of them will never see the internal customer.

It is modeled after Lean Mfg. Unfortunately, the ISO process aapproach assumes one knows a lot about processes already. Maybe not a good assumption, but it takes things for granted.

For example, a lab technician may never see or contact the external "real customer." His job is to calibrate gages for internal gage owners. If he does a poor job, gages are late or unavailable, provide poor readings, it will impact the external customer, even if he does not see them. But, if we measure the effectiveness of his internal work in light of the needs of his direct internal customer, then his impact on the external customer is benefited.

I like to say many internal processes labor in the dark basement, out of sight of the external customer. They only see and are seen by their internal direct customer. If we measure and improve their performance, the impact on the external customer is improved, even if they don't know who that is.

 

[samsung]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

No, it misses the point of a process approach. An internal customer is the receiver of the output of an internal process. The process approach is a series of processes, handing outputs to the next process, to the internal customer, who adds further value, before handing it to the next internal process. While each process must keep an eye on the external customer, many of them will never see the internal customer.

It is modeled after Lean Mfg. Unfortunately, the ISO process approach assumes one knows a lot about processes already. Maybe not a good assumption, but it takes things for granted.

For example, a lab technician may never see or contact the external "real customer." His job is to calibrate gages for internal gage owners. If he does a poor job, gages are late or unavailable, provide poor readings, it will impact the external customer, even if he does not see them. But, if we measure the effectiveness of his internal work in light of the needs of his direct internal customer, then his impact on the external customer is benefited.

I like to say many internal processes labor in the dark basement, out of sight of the external customer. They only see and are seen by their internal direct customer. If we measure and improve their performance, the impact on the external customer is improved, even if they don't know who that is.

Yes, you are absolutely correct and I do appreciate your thoughtfulness and views expressed above. This is fine. What I am concerned about is the technical aspect of the term 'customer' and applicability of the related customer requirements throughout the Quality management System.

You are an expert of the subject and as such can interpret and design the system accordingly but what about the newbies and other 'would be' practitioners of QMS. It may take them years to really comprehend the essence of process approach and 'customer' terminology per se.

The key is, what you rightly said:

Unfortunately, the ISO process approach assumes one knows a lot about processes already. Maybe not a good assumption, but it takes things for granted.

Exactly this is what I wanted to convey with enhanced emphasis on simplification & clarification of the key issues with some examples.

Let's agree on one point that the standard, in it's current form, is a complex stuff and needs a lot of attention towards making it such a simple (yet generic) template that even a school going child can understand the message it intends to convey.

Had it not been so complex, why the people over here would be discussing the intricacies of the issues so exhaustively for over a decade on the Cove itself ?

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Yes, you are absolutely correct and I do appreciate your thoughtfulness and views expressed above. This is fine. What I am concerned about is the technical aspect of the term 'customer' and applicability of the related customer requirements throughout the Quality management System.

You are an expert of the subject and as such can interpret and design the system accordingly but what about the newbies and other 'would be' practitioners of QMS. It may take them years to really comprehend the essence of process approach and 'customer' terminology per se.

The key is, what you rightly said:


Exactly this is what I wanted to convey with enhanced emphasis on simplification & clarification of the key issues with some examples.

Let's agree on one point that the standard, in it's current form, is a complex stuff and needs a lot of attention towards making it such a simple (yet generic) template that even a school going child can understand the message it intends to convey.

Had it not been so complex, why the people over here would be discussing the intricacies of the issues so exhaustively for over a decade on the Cove itself ?

We can only hope they gradually clarify the concept. That is where a forum like Elsmar is so useful. It is iron sharpening iron, to make the ideas better.

 

[MajorBVNaik]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

I want to add here about OFI. During audit I as a LA give an OFI if NC can be given as there is no specific requirement which has not been implemented but the matter is serios enough to be brought to the notice off the top management & implementeation of the OFI will improve efficiency & effectiveness

 

[MajorBVNaik]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

I quite agree. I have been spending lot of time telling organizations not to copy the standard while preparing the quality manual. QM should inform your customers-present & potential, they way your organization functions & implements the QMS

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

I want to add here about OFI. During audit I as a LA give an OFI if NC can be given as there is no specific requirement which has not been implemented but the matter is serios enough to be brought to the notice off the top management & implementeation of the OFI will improve efficiency & effectiveness

Major,

Many auditors like to audit against their opinion (unknown audit criteria) but they are missing the opportunity to investigate the reason why the system had not established the missing requirement.

This could include auditing the effectiveness of planning (5.4.2, 7.1 and 7.3.1) and designing (7.3) and perhaps the review of customer requirements.

Instead your audit may cause the auditee to take action on your OFI but the system weakness will remain.

Our job as auditors is to see how well the system helps the organization to establish and meet process and product requirements. Not to impose our good ideas as new requirements.

John

 

[whitey115]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Not at all! The QMS is just that "Quality Management System"... and it should not include safety and health requirements...it will just muddy the waters even more. Anybody out there read the OSHA manual lately? Talk about"cumbersome"!

 

[samsung]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

Not at all! The QMS is just that "Quality Management System"... and it should not include safety and health requirements...it will just muddy the waters even more. Anybody out there read the OSHA manual lately? Talk about"cumbersome"!

Which post are you referring to ?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard?

http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livel...w.html?func=ll&objId=9841934&objAction=browse

ISO 9000 User Survey
October 2010

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The International Organization for Standardization's technical committee no. 176, sub-committee no.2 (ISO/TC176/SC2) completed its amendment to ISO 9001 in 2008 and its revision to ISO 9004 in 2009; it is now considering whether these (and related standards in the ISO 9000 family) should be revised, and what such revisions should consist of.

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