What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2015 Standard?

[SeatynCB5]

After much thought, I believe that the TC 176 must try a significant new way to promote ISO 9001 in the future. The endless discussion if ISO 9001 is a quality management system standard or a business management system standard led me to the conclusion that ISO 9001 must be sold as a standard that contains requirements for the Quality (please note the capital Q) component of Business Processes.

For example, product realization is NOT a quality process. Products will be manufactured/produced and services will be delivered IRRESPECTIVE of the organization having a formalized quality system or not. Thus, product realization is a business process, just like purchasing, sales, marketing, management, etc. ISO 9001 contains quality management requirements that need to be embedded in the business processes. Only when organizations understand that, they will realize that quality needs to be managed as part of the business and not as a side issue.

Some processes, e.g., corrective action, internal audits, etc... are NOT business processes "per se", but are part of the quality system.

So, in my view point, and in preparation for the 5[sup]th[/sup] Edition of ISO 9001, expected sometime in 2015, the TC 176 has to learn from the lessons learned and start plugging the future ISO 9001 as it fits the business processes of the organizations. The management of the organization FOR quality and not the management of quality.

The process approach should not be the management of quality related processes any longer, but the management of business processes. ISO 9001 provides a component of requirements for the business processes. ISO 14001 provides another set of requirements.

No more (quality) process approach, but business process approach. Focusing on business processes will make the integration of management system standards even easier.

"The process approach should not be the management of quality related processes any longer, but the management of business processes. ISO 9001 provides a component of requirements for the business processes".

Do you think upper management is ready for that statement?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

The Quality Manager at the facility indicated that ISO 9001:2015 will integrate TS 16949 and ISO 14001 into 1 standard.

Pretty amazing how rumors spread. Your quality manager has no clue whatsoever about the future of ISO 9001. Let him/her about this site, so s/he can educate him/herself.

"The process approach should not be the management of quality related processes any longer, but the management of business processes. ISO 9001 provides a component of requirements for the business processes".

Do you think upper management is ready for that statement?

Top management is ready for that, in the same way they are ready for

DEMING'S 14 PRINCIPLES
The 14 points.

1. Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of product and service, with the aim to become competitive and to stay in business, and to provide jobs.
2. Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. Western management must awaken to the challenge, must learn their responsibilities, and take on leadership for change.
3. Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for inspection on a mass basis by building quality into the product in the first place.
4. End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag. Instead, minimize total cost. Move toward a single supplier for any one item, on a long-term relationship of loyalty and trust.
5. Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service, to improve quality and productivity, and thus constantly decrease costs.
6. Institute training on the job.
7. Institute leadership (see Point 12 and Ch. 8). The aim of supervision should be to help people and machines and gadgets to do a better job. Supervision of management is in need of overhaul, as well as supervision of production workers.
8. Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company (see Ch. 3).
9. Break down barriers between departments. People in research, design, sales, and production must work as a team, to foresee problems of production and in use that may be encountered with the product or service.
10. Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of low quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie beyond the power of the work force.
    
11. Remove barriers that rob the hourly worker of his right to pride of workmanship. The responsibility of supervisors must be changed from sheer numbers to quality.
12. Remove barriers that rob people in management and in engineering of their right to pride of workmanship. This means, inter alia, abolishment of the annual or merit rating and of management by objective (see Ch. 3).
13. Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement.
14. Put everybody in the company to work to accomplish the transformation. The transformation is everybody's job.

 

[sridharafep]

1. Certification body using freelancers for auditing the organization to make profit or to be competitive. By the way the freelancer's are basically also running consultancy job / training etc. How can they maintain the integrity of the audit information.

2. Many CB running consultancy service and training using their subsidiary company for a reason. Here the consultant or trainer is other way auditor for the organization!

3. Why do we need to have frequent surveillance (minimum once in six-month or one year) – why don’t we think of leave this responsibility to organization internal audit system? and CB can do once X years or review audit reports?

4. ISO 9001 certificate validity is only 3 years why not increase?

5. Acceptance of one CB certificate by another CB / for example an organization holding three product quality mark license from three or more sources and they are forced to have 3 or more ISO 9001 certificates.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

1. Certification body using freelancers for auditing the organization to make profit or to be competitive. By the way the freelancer's are basically also running consultancy job / training etc. How can they maintain the integrity of the audit information.

2. Many CB running consultancy service and training using their subsidiary company for a reason. Here the consultant or trainer is other way auditor for the organization!

3. Why do we need to have frequent surveillance (minimum once in six-month or one year) – why don’t we think of leave this responsibility to organization internal audit system? and CB can do once X years or review audit reports?

4. ISO 9001 certificate validity is only 3 years why not increase?

5. Acceptance of one CB certificate by another CB / for example an organization holding three product quality mark license from three or more sources and they are forced to have 3 or more ISO 9001 certificates.

Let's keep in mind that we are not talking about the CONFORMITY ASSESSMENT practices around the standard in this thread. We are talking about the STANDARD ITSELF and it's contents.

 

[sridharafep]

thank you i will post it in appropriate page....

Sridhar

 

[djbeatsent]

I wonder what would happen if the word "cost" got put into the standard...something like "company must determine method and metrics of profitability". Uh ohh, did I open up a big can of worms?:mg::mg::mg:

 

[Stijloor]

I wonder what would happen if the word "cost" got put into the standard...something like "company must determine method and metrics of profitability". Uh ohh, did I open up a big can of worms?:mg::mg::mg:

The ISO 9001 standard is intended for all organizations.
That includes non-profits as well.

Stijloor.

 

[djbeatsent]

The ISO 9001 standard is intended for all organizations.
That includes non-profits as well.

Stijloor.

Yes, however...I have learned that the effectiveness of a process has to be tied in somehow or another to profitability. Spending time and resources improving a process that makes good numbers on the quality board, but has no link to profitability and ultimately costs the company money that will never be returned- and is not good.

Example: Lets say I spend time doing a root cause analysis on a manufacturing job that runs 50% scrap and find that the mold needs water lines to maintain stability. I invest $5000 into the work to make the tool what it needs to be. Now it can run over a million parts with no defects. The quality board looks good, and my quality goals look nicer. But if it runs twice a year, and takes me 82 years to get my return back, it's a waste. Why no link between process effectiveness and profitability? (besides the goal to include non-profit orgs)

 

[Stijloor]

Yes, however...I have learned that the effectiveness of a process has to be tied in somehow or another to profitability. Spending time and resources improving a process that makes good numbers on the quality board, but has no link to profitability and ultimately costs the company money that will never be returned- and is not good.

Example: Lets say I spend time doing a root cause analysis on a manufacturing job that runs 50% scrap and find that the mold needs water lines to maintain stability. I invest $5000 into the work to make the tool what it needs to be. Now it can run over a million parts with no defects. The quality board looks good, and my quality goals look nicer. But if it runs twice a year, and takes me 82 years to get my return back, it's a waste. Why no link between process effectiveness and profitability? (besides the goal to include non-profit orgs)

Excellent points. No argument here, but as long as the TC 176 standards writers insist on the "all-inclusiveness" of the standard, any financial-related requirements will not fly. Now, if an organization wants to establish financial performance objectives and associated measurements for itself, they can do that at any time. That's the beauty of this ISO 9001 document. You can do whatever makes sense to make it work for the organization.

Stijloor.

 

[JaneB]

Now, if an organization wants to establish financial performance objectives and associated measurements for itself, they can do that at any time. That's the beauty of this ISO 9001 document. You can do whatever makes sense to make it work for the organization.

Yes, exactly. The Standard already has the requirements that profit-making enterprises can use to set profitability as a KPI/metric/performance element wherever and whenever they choose. But as it is written, it does not exclude nonprofit organisations. If you made it mandatory, it would. And I think such a change would be detrimental to nonprofits.

djbeatsent: I know, I know, those who work everyday and always have in profit-making businesses don't see this as important and do see financial metrics as important. And the specific example you give is a very good one and you're entirely right - not much point in so-called quality if it takes 82 years to get a return back! I agree with you entirely about the importance of finances and profitability for commercial businesses. But I also highly value the fact that the Standard is so generic, and thus so flexible and capable of being used in so many different fields.