What the impact is of a high %GRR/TV

Danny Hoover

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#1
Good day,
I am hoping someone can help explain exactly what the impact is of %GRR/TV
being at such a high percent? This gage source has historically had issues supplying GRR data with product, and I am having trouble getting the gages to pass a gage r&r in-house using their form.
It is a simple(?) load a part, check with an indicator in one spot fixture.
It seems to datum ok, but a gage R (1x10) fails after several attempts.
Thanks for the help.
Danny
 

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Miner

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#2
To what use will this gauge be applied? It is acceptable for use as an inspection gauge. It does not appear to be acceptable for use in SPC or for statistical studies such as capability. However, this last evaluation is highly dependent on the ten parts used in the study. If these parts are representative of the actual process variation, the results are accurate, if they do not represent actual process variation (e.g., they were 10 consecutive parts) then the results may be greater than actual.
 

Danny Hoover

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#3
Thank you Miner,
The gage is to be used to collect on-going SPC data for capability during production runs, one point to monitor length. My biggest trouble I have with these "borderline" as received studies is attempting to resolve the dispute when my Lab team can't get the same, or passing results. I suspect this may have been one part checked 2x2x10x, which is why I am suspicious of the high %GRR/TV. I need to repeat and pass these studies from a production run tomorrow and I am trying to get a easy way to explain to the engineer what is happening.
I suspect many times the samples I get for layout are consecutive, not 30/300 or more, and we have stability issues when running a 4th edition MSA study.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Danny
 
B

Barbara B

#4
The part could be the same for all values or the parts are too similar or the measurement system uncertainty (GRR%) is too high. Nothing within the data could answer the question why the GRR%(study variation) is big, it could only be said that GRR% is too high compared to study variation.

Attached you'll find a Gage R&R (crossed) analysis done in Minitab which provides additional informations about the similarity of values (gage run chart), the GRR% compared to study variation and tolerance width as well as a GRR% compared to a ficititous historical process standard deviation of 0.2 (std dev in Gage R&R study: 0.3).

GRR%(study variation): 100% -> way too high
GRR%(tolerance width): 11.1% -> good
GRR%(ficititious process standard variation): 16.6% -> acceptable

Do you have informations about the usual process standard variation (aka historical standard variation)? To evaluate whether the part selection for the Gage R&R was made properly you could compare study variation (here: 0.03) and historical standard variation. They should be roughly similar if the part selection was made according to MSA requirements.
 

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Danny Hoover

Involved In Discussions
#5
Thank you Barbara for the information.
The gage I am asking about is new, going to be used today on a 300 pc run sample to validate GRR using the SPC port and supplying that data as part of the PPAP submission.
We are not the most strict on part collection during run-offs, I suspect most may be 30 pcs consecutive(I am not invited to the run-off). My stake is to prove the gage is repeatable and accurate for data collection, and I feel many times it may not be.
I have been digesting all the theory I can on the MSA requirements and best practices, the Cove is a great resource.
Thanks for all the help!
Danny
 
D

Dtwo5

#6
Good day,
I am hoping someone can help explain exactly what the impact is of %GRR/TV
being at such a high percent? This gage source has historically had issues supplying GRR data with product, and I am having trouble getting the gages to pass a gage r&r in-house using their form.
It is a simple(?) load a part, check with an indicator in one spot fixture.
It seems to datum ok, but a gage R (1x10) fails after several attempts.
Thanks for the help.
Danny
Hello Danny - I think "using their form" is the key here. I have the AIAG format on disk and I can assure you this has been modified.
When I get a moment I will run it using your numbers. What is the upper and lower specification? My AIAG format does not have "Total Tolerance".
 

Danny Hoover

Involved In Discussions
#7
Dtwo5,
The total tolerance is ?0.9mm, for a 1.8 total range. I have dropped this data in a couple different forms, but I have found out is really a check of 1 part 10x by 2 operators show that is part of the issue.
Thanks for the reply, I am trying to hammer out details for future requirements.
Danny
 
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