What to "bubble" on customer print vs. internal print

M

Mark Paul

#1
There is some debate as to what must be APQP bubble numbered and what should be numbered and what doesn't have to be APQP numbered and listed in various PPAP documents.
In a ts16949 environment, do you buble number every dimension including basic dims?
What about the notes on the side or bottom of the print that reference all sorts of things and can take up half of the print itself.(Ford comes to mind with their part prints)
 
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R

ralphsulser

#2
Re: What to "bubble" on customer vs. internal print

There is some debate as to what must be APQP bubble numbered and what should be numbered and what doesn't have to be APQP numbered and listed in various PPAP documents.
In a ts16949 environment, do you buble number every dimension including basic dims?
What about the notes on the side or bottom of the print that reference all sorts of things and can take up half of the print itself.(Ford comes to mind with their part prints)

Typically, this is discussed with your STA ahead of time to decide what to bubble. Ours told us which dimensions to bubble.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: What to "bubble" on customer vs. internal print

There is some debate as to what must be APQP bubble numbered and what should be numbered and what doesn't have to be APQP numbered and listed in various PPAP documents.
In a ts16949 environment, do you buble number every dimension including basic dims?
What about the notes on the side or bottom of the print that reference all sorts of things and can take up half of the print itself.(Ford comes to mind with their part prints)
It's generally expected that all dimensions and specifications, except reference dimensions, will be addressed in PPAP dimensional reports unless otherwise stipulated by the customer.
 
Z

z28tt

#4
We're an aerospace machine shop, and in the past, our company has bubbled *everything* on a print (via Excel). I just found an old bubbleup with about 30 casting target points even bubbled! Now I'm trying to push through bubbling the minimum necessary, using Visual FAIR software.

One of our customer FQE's was in the shop this morning, so I broached the subject with him. My position is that actual dimensions as well as GD&T feature control frames need to be bubbled, but not basic dimensions (since they're captured in the toleranced feature control frame). His stance is that he wants to see the basic dimensions that build up the feature control frame, since they are required for the measurement.

This example is a hole drilled on an angle. The angle is basic 45 degrees. The hole has a .001" true position callout. I just want to bubble the true position tolerance and report that measurement, but our FQE insists that the basic 45deg should also be bubbled, along with an actual dimension for the angle on the AS9102 form. My take is that since the 45deg is theoretically perfect with no tolerance (just in the .001" true pos), there is no measurement necessary. He wants to see how we calculated the .001" true pos, rather than just have a number in the form.

If we're supposed to put actuals on the 45deg basic feature, how do you tolerance it? Is it in? Is it out?

Another question came up on parts that have radial features. There's 0-180 and 90-270deg lines drawn on the print. Only the 0° is used to reference another angle (12±.25°) for a feature. We have to bubble the 12°±.25°, but why do we need to bubble the 0° (and on the dimensional results form state "noted" as the result)? Also with 90, 180, and 270°?

The one thing we did agree on is that reference dimensions doot need bubbles. Datums also do not, but he likes to see them (why? where's the value added in stating "noted" or "accepted" on the results form?). Drawing notes must be bubbled. Now one of our customers is requiring that we bubble the PO as well for a preferred PPAP!!!
 
M

mwohlg

#5
If we're supposed to put actuals on the 45deg basic feature, how do you tolerance it? Is it in? Is it out?
Don't put any tolerance at all. It isn't in. It isn't out. It just is what it is. If it is really screwed up it will be reflected in the true position (or whatever) dimension it is used for.
 
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