What to do instead of PPAP for non ISO TS 16949 Certified Supplier?

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#1
Part of the suppliers of the direct materials we use in production ( semiconductor business) are not ISO TS certified but only ISO 9001.
However we have a plan to audit them on their premises on their quality system management and control for the product ( chemicals) we purchase.
We do not have specific requirement for this products: we can say that we buy them as "standard".
Each three-four months we have meeting as well as conference call where production data are shown by the suppliers ( I mean data on the SPC, issue in case of out of spec and so on...).
To be said we also try to develop them toward a sort of compliance to ISO TS according to the 7.4.1 of ISO TS standard: I mean usage of 8D for problem solving, a sort of risk assessment on their production process ( FMEA), specification issue to react to problems.
In any case they cannot do PPAP, but we have established and agreed with them a procedure for product approval: I mean that they send a sample of product, we perform test in our production line with a trial production, and if it is all ok, we approve them as suppliers and purchase the product.
We also establish guidelines just in case they modify something in their production line that could affect the quality of product we purchase.

The question is : is it ok to comply with ISO TS or should we force and carry them to sign off a regulars PPAP according to AIAG Blue book?

Thks for your thoughs and support:bigwave:
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
<snip> In any case they cannot do PPAP, but we have established and agreed with them a procedure for product approval: I mean that they send a sample of product, we perform test in our production line with a trial production, and if it is all ok, we approve them as suppliers and purchase the product.
Why can they not perform PPAP? You, as the customer can determine what you want from your supplier. ;) They need to provide the evidence that they understand your requirements and that their process has the capability to provide you consistently with products that meet your requirements.

You determine what the submission requirements are. And if you want to refer to some of the AIAG PPAP requirements, that can be done as well.

We also establish guidelines just in case they modify something in their production line that could affect the quality of product we purchase.
Great! :applause:

The question is: Is it OK to comply with ISO/TS or should we force and carry them to sign off a regular PPAP according to AIAG Blue book?
Do you mean require them to be ISO/TS? As far as PPAP is concerned, see above.

Thanks for your thoughts and support:bigwave:
You're very welcome!

Stijloor.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#3
The question is : is it ok to comply with ISO TS or should we force and carry them to sign off a regulars PPAP according to AIAG Blue book?

Thks for your thoughs and support:bigwave:
Are you required to submit PPAPs to your customer(s)? Here's what TS 16949 says:
TS 16949:2009 said:
7.3.6.3 Product approval process

The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer.

This product and manufacturing process approval procedure shall also be applied to suppliers.
It looks pretty clear to me that if you're required by your customer(s) to provide PPAPs, then you need to require PPAPs from your suppliers also.
 
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qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#4
Why can they not perform PPAP? You, as the customer can determine what you want from your supplier. ;) They need to provide the evidence that they understand your requirements and that their process has the capability to provide you consistently with products that meet your requirements.

You determine what the submission requirements are. And if you want to refer to some of the AIAG PPAP requirements, that can be done as well.



Great! :applause:



Do you mean require them to be ISO/TS? As far as PPAP is concerned, see above.



You're very welcome!

Stijloor.
Hi Stijloor,
thanks for response.
Your point of view is reasonable, but take into account that these suppliers are historically ones for us . We obtained ISO TS certification two years ago and , since that time, we are applying PPAP with our customer according to AIAG guideline .
These suppliers will never apply to get ISO TS certification, but we are trying to develop them. However, given that they are currently only ISO 9001 certified , they are not obliged to use FMEA, Control plan, MSA studies ( just to mention some items included in PPAP). That's the point.
They cannot invest resources in the development of these methodologies given that ISO 9001 does not request to them in a specific way.
As just explained, we have an alternative procedure to qualify the product we purchase, but we do not stricly follow PPAP. They have procedures to react in case of an oos, prevention of eventually issues etc. but they do not use standard format of FMEA, CP etc...
Consider that the product ( raw material) we purchase is as "standard" without any special characteristic from our side, so they also sell this product to other customers ( not ISO TS certified probably)that do not require PPAP. Besides, in the P.O. there are also written and agreed requirement for packaging, delivery and acceptance at our premises ( I mean CoC, CoA etc...)
So, this is the point.
:bigwave:
 
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qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Are you required to submit PPAPs to your customer(s)? Here's what TS 16949 says:

It looks pretty clear to me that if you're required by your customer(s) to provide PPAPs, then you need to require PPAPs from your suppliers also.
Thanks for response howste.
See the previous post in response to Stijloor.
I agree with you for clause 7.3.6.3 but these suppliers are only ISO 9001 certified and provide to us standard products ( chemicals without any special characteristics from our side).

They will never be ISO TS certified , so they are not compelled to use FMEA, control plan, MSA, and so. We try to develop them but from their side no resources are invested to implement this. It is a neverending story.
How could we proceed? Consider that a procedure to qualify the product we purchase is in place and the control over these supplier is assured ( by means of their production data regular review in meeting , second part audit , correction and prevention of issue in case of non conformance etc..) according to 7.4.3.1 and 7.4.3.2 of ISO TS ) as already explained in the prior post.:bigwave:
 
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howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#6
The standard says "...shall also be applied to suppliers." I don't see any wiggle room there. I think the wiggle room is in the part that says "...a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer." If your customer approves an alternative method to approve their manufacturing process and the product, then that would also be acceptable.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#7
The standard says "...shall also be applied to suppliers." I don't see any wiggle room there. I think the wiggle room is in the part that says "...a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer." If your customer approves an alternative method to approve their manufacturing process and the product, then that would also be acceptable.

I think that sometimes ISO TS is controversial and antithetical in some clauseses, in this case in 7.3.6.3 and 7.4.1.2.
I understand the development of the supplier vs the compliance ( not certifcation ) to the ISO TS, but it is very long journey for those are only 9001 certified. If the organization needs currently some raw materials from the ones certified ISO 9001, PPAP from those suppliers is not achievable "as is" according to the AIAG Blue Book.
Consider that bulk material could be also amended to have PPAP according to Blue book, but if the organization assigned them a production part number , they become part of the final product. I think that all the organizations assign a part number to them, given that these material are managed via SAP.
I would appreciate some advices from third part auditors on this topic or experience from who has just faced this.:bigwave:
 
T

tomvehoski

#8
The standard says "...shall also be applied to suppliers." I don't see any wiggle room there. I think the wiggle room is in the part that says "...a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer." If your customer approves an alternative method to approve their manufacturing process and the product, then that would also be acceptable.
I've never had an auditor raise this, and would fight it if they ever did. If I am allowed to determine which of my supplier are critical and need to be "approved", I should also be able to determine critical levels for PPAP vs no-PPAP. At the bottom of the food chain (tier 2 & 3) much of PPAP becomes an exercise in useless paperwork.

I don't require PPAP from a steel distributor that slits steel. Making them mock up a control plan or FMEA for something they do day after day, submit a warrant, etc. is pointless. I do require a material certification and sample cut from the coil so we can do our own testing without having to unband the coil at receiving.

I do require PPAP from suppliers that make parts, to a customer/our print, that become a finished part of an assembly.

We sell a nylon standoff to one customer which can be purchased from any electrical supply house. They know this, but still buy it from us (we package and add a bar code label, at a hefty markup). They require us to submit a full Level 3 PPAP. Should I make Grainger do the same?

I have another customer that requires a capacity verification study be completed for each part we have to PPAP. It is multiple tabs in an Excel spreadsheet. We produce their entire annual volume in a couple hours.

There is way too much money wasted in this industry because "the book says I need this paperwork done" instead of applying common sense and using the right tools at the right time.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#9
I've never had an auditor raise this, and would fight it if they ever did. If I am allowed to determine which of my supplier are critical and need to be "approved", I should also be able to determine critical levels for PPAP vs no-PPAP. At the bottom of the food chain (tier 2 & 3) much of PPAP becomes an exercise in useless paperwork.

I don't require PPAP from a steel distributor that slits steel. Making them mock up a control plan or FMEA for something they do day after day, submit a warrant, etc. is pointless. I do require a material certification and sample cut from the coil so we can do our own testing without having to unband the coil at receiving.

I do require PPAP from suppliers that make parts, to a customer/our print, that become a finished part of an assembly.

We sell a nylon standoff to one customer which can be purchased from any electrical supply house. They know this, but still buy it from us (we package and add a bar code label, at a hefty markup). They require us to submit a full Level 3 PPAP. Should I make Grainger do the same?

I have another customer that requires a capacity verification study be completed for each part we have to PPAP. It is multiple tabs in an Excel spreadsheet. We produce their entire annual volume in a couple hours.

There is way too much money wasted in this industry because "the book says I need this paperwork done" instead of applying common sense and using the right tools at the right time.
Agree with you.
Consider that we are in semicon device fabrication and part of the suppliers are corporate ones and used in multiple sites.
As manufacturing site, only we are certified vs ISO TS . SO , the issue is more complex.
Consider that some regional suppliers of raw material, that we have considered strategical for our business ( based upon internal criteria), have only ISO 9001 certification.:bigwave:
 
#10
I think that sometimes ISO TS is controversial and antithetical in some clauseses, in this case in 7.3.6.3 and 7.4.1.2.
I understand the development of the supplier vs the compliance ( not certifcation ) to the ISO TS, but it is very long journey for those are only 9001 certified. If the organization needs currently some raw materials from the ones certified ISO 9001, PPAP from those suppliers is not achievable "as is" according to the AIAG Blue Book.
Consider that bulk material could be also amended to have PPAP according to Blue book, but if the organization assigned them a production part number , they become part of the final product. I think that all the organizations assign a part number to them, given that these material are managed via SAP.
I would appreciate some advices from third part auditors on this topic or experience from who has just faced this.:bigwave:
I think we are confusing two separate requirments. 7.3.6.3 is about product approval. 7.4.1.2 is about QMS development. Two totally different subjects. You can require PPAP from a supplier who is registered to nothing! I have many clients who's customers require evidence that they performed PPAP with their suppliers.
 
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