What to do instead of PPAP for non ISO TS 16949 Certified Supplier?

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#11
I think we are confusing two separate requirments. 7.3.6.3 is about product approval. 7.4.1.2 is about QMS development. Two totally different subjects. You can require PPAP from a supplier who is registered to nothing! I have many clients who's customers require evidence that they performed PPAP with their suppliers.
What about if these suppliers have no resource and knowledge at this time to implement the items required from AIAG PPAP manual, as per related format , if they are only ISO 9001 certified?:bigwave:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
What about if these suppliers have no resource and knowledge at this time to implement the items required from AIAG PPAP manual, as per related format , if they are only ISO 9001 certified?:bigwave:
Being only ISO 9001 is irrelevant. TS requires you to apply the product approval process, that you are required to perform, to your suppliers. If your customer(s) allow less from your suppliers, then you can do less. In absence of that, you have to flow the PPAP requirements down.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#13
I think that sometimes ISO TS is controversial and antithetical in some clauses...
The requirements of TS 16949 don't always make perfect sense in every situation. ISO 9001 was written to be generic enough to be applied in any kind of organization. TS 16949 wasn't.

Having said that, I'm a 3rd party TS 16949 auditor, and I'm required audit to all of the requirements of the standard. If a company has not met a requirement I'm required to write a nonconformity. I'm not allowed to ignore requirements for whatever reason, no matter how logical it may sound. Each company that's registered to TS 16949 needs to determine how to meet the requirements of the standard in the way that makes the most sense and will benefit them the most.

The intent of 7.3.6.3 is to require the supply chain to demonstrate that their manufacturing processes are capable of producing the desired products, and when changes are made to demonstrate that the processes are still capable of producing them. I don't think that the intent is unreasonable. You'll need to work with your customers and suppliers to meet the requirement in a way that makes sense.
 
N

Nanty

#14
We are a tier 3 supplier and we hold ISO 9001:2008. I noticed that customers try to push us to do PPAP and other requirements which are mentioned in TS2. One customer - the largest in our industry - said that if the raw material - what we supply - is of major importance, the demand for TS2 is higher.
Q1 - Can our customer demand for TS2?
Q2 - Is there indeed a trend to have tier 3 partners upscale their qualifications?

As mentioned by tomvehoski it is certainly also about a lot of useless paperwork, not used in other markets and thereby increasing costs, which is also not in the interest of the automotive industrie.
Q3 - Should we anticipate on a change?
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#15
We are a tier 3 supplier and we hold ISO 9001:2008. I noticed that customers try to push us to do PPAP and other requirements which are mentioned in TS2. One customer - the largest in our industry - said that if the raw material - what we supply - is of major importance, the demand for TS2 is higher.
Q1 - Can our customer demand for TS2?
Q2 - Is there indeed a trend to have tier 3 partners upscale their qualifications?

As mentioned by tomvehoski it is certainly also about a lot of useless paperwork, not used in other markets and thereby increasing costs, which is also not in the interest of the automotive industrie.
Q3 - Should we anticipate on a change?
Hi Nanty,
your questions are interesting.
I remain of the opinion that sometimes ISO TS is controversial in some points and quality manual guidelines , specific for PPAP etc. , are too generic.
 
N

Nanty

#16
Hi qusys,

thanks for the reaction. So you are saying that TS2 is not the holy bible? But there is no other lead.
Still, I would like to know what I can expect in the future and how to react to customers who try to put the responsiblity further down the chain of supply without expecting major cost increase....
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#17
Hi qusys,

thanks for the reaction. So you are saying that TS2 is not the holy bible? But there is no other lead.
Still, I would like to know what I can expect in the future and how to react to customers who try to put the responsiblity further down the chain of supply without expecting major cost increase....
I think that howste last post gives the right direction.

What do you mean for TS 2?
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#19
So does it then imply that TS16949 should be implemented in the total supply chain? Or are Tiers >2 exonerated?


I do not understand your question.
Goedemorgen Nanty, :bigwave:

When you refer to TS 2, do you mean IS/TS 16949:2009?
Just for clarification...;)

Stijloor.
 
N

Nanty

#20
Goedemorgen Stijloor,

Yes, I thought that TS2 and TS16949 are the same thing.... Might show that I am not to well aware of it :confused:.
 
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