What to do when the auditors guide does not return

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#11
Is this considered as nonconformity? In case which clause violated? 5.1 Management commitment?
I would think it might be appropriate but it would be a bit touchy to try to write up. And in this case, we don't have enough information to go on. For example, the auditor's guide may have been called away and found there was a family emergency thus leaving quickly and being too distracted to have let anyone know, leaving the auditor on the floor (or where ever) alone other than the immediate auditees.

That's why I said I would ask to see the company contact and ask that person what was going on. It could be a legitimate event. Unexpected events do happen. Until you have all the facts you can not determine a course of action.

:topic: I know some folks here do not particularly like student questions like this for one reason or another, but I personally think they're a good thing. It helps us all think and learn. And when you think about it, all of us, young or old, experienced or not, are still students. We all still have things to learn.
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#12
Wait until the guide has returned. If, after about 15 minutes or so, if it was me, I'd probably ask an employee to take me to the quality manager (or who ever the company contact person responsible for the audit is) and let the contact person explain what is going on. If I was in a bad mood I might even cancel the audit, pack up and leave.

In a lead auditor course they generally have a question like that and point out that it is one tactic some companies use to try to "burn up time" so the audit can't be fully completed. Another "burn up the time" method is for someone in upper management to be "busy" (you're in their office waiting to interview the person but the person isn't there yet) with the promise that the person will "soon" be there. And as the minutes and hours pass.... Time is being "burned up".
Yes, that's a sound approach.

Time management is critical on an audit.

Yes, auditors do need to be flexible - but they also must have adequate time to actually do what the audit requires. And if a company is using this as a delay tactic, the auditor has to take corrective or preventive action so that the audit isn't derailed or the auditor prevented from doing their job.
I would think it might be appropriate but it would be a bit touchy to try to write up. And in this case, we don't have enough information to go on. For example, the auditor's guide may have been called away and found there was a family emergency thus leaving quickly and being too distracted to have let anyone know, leaving the auditor on the floor (or where ever) alone other than the immediate auditees.

That's why I said I would ask to see the company contact and ask that person what was going on. It could be a legitimate event. Unexpected events do happen. Until you have all the facts you can not determine a course of action.

:topic: I know some folks here do not particularly like student questions like this for one reason or another, but I personally think they're a good thing. It helps us all think and learn. And when you think about it, all of us, young or old, experienced or not, are still students. We all still have things to learn.
Frankly, I like hypotheticals.

The essence of dealing with a hypothetical is to balance diplomacy with effectiveness and efficiency.

Being left unescorted for anywhere from five minutes to as much as half an hour could just be the result of the escort having to deal with an emergency. No reason to pack up your things and stalk off in a huff for being "dissed."

Regardless of how long the wait, some consideration has to be made for the physical conditions one is in - it's a lot easier to deal with a half hour wait if 15 minutes of that time can be used to proceed with the audit. It's a different story if you are left alone with a person who doesn't speak your language next to a roaring furnace full of molten metal. If the situation creates physical discomfort, move to a safe comfortable location (bathroom? breakroom?) and leave a note with an individual at the location where you were left for the guide, if he should return.

I pretty much hold to the concept that a half hour is the extreme limit to wait, either in the original location or your more comfortable retreat, before making your way to the administration of the organization to determine how or whether to proceed.

If you are an outside auditor, the clock and fare meter are running and the auditee organization will have to pay - there is no way the auditor should skip segments of the audit because of the delay. If flight schedules, etc. are immutable, auditee may have to pay all over again for a rescheduled visit. Auditor should be empowered to make that clear to auditee organization executives.

Frankly, in all my experience, I've never seen or heard of an adequate explanation why an auditee organization would willfully try to sabotage an audit by such a delaying tactic, nor can I envision any ISO registrar being duped by such a delay. Impugning the auditee organization or individuals by implying such goes beyond the normal diplomacy I would expect of a registrar and its employees (regardless if it is true.) The auditor holds the cards - he can withhold certification if he isn't given adequate time to complete an audit or if he is not paid for the time he does take. Where is any advantage for the auditee organization to delay the audit, except to garner time to fix known shortcomings? If so, how does that make a real difference to the auditor? - i.e. Whether the shortcomings are noted and corrective actions completed or whether corrective actions are implemented before the auditor notes the discrepancies, the end result is a compliant organization.
 
A

arios

#14
Can anyone help me with the below question
An auditor is conducting a third party QMS audit and the guide that has been appointed to accompany him is called away by his supervisor. After five minutes, the guide has not returned. What should the auditor do? What should the auditor not do?
On the next audit use the "Hansel & Gretel approach" to find your way back :notme: :lol:
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#15
Looking at the situation from the auditee side:
Pretty much everyone will agree an auditor (or any visitor) should not be left unescorted, but emergencies happen. Ideally the escort should provide a substitute to at least lead the auditor back to some location where the auditor can be accommodated if the abandonment will take long. A five-minute "bathroom emergency" is NOT abandonment! I once had a pregnant woman with morning sickness escort me through a plant - she had a supply of airline air sickness bags with her clipboard. I got left alone twice and just went over my notes while I waited.
 
J

JaneB

#17
Taking the other view... mostly organisations will lean in the opposite direction and avoid leaving an auditor unescorted.

Because if left to their own devices, who knows what the auditor may look at, who they may get talking to, what they may discover etc...

But yes, of course common sense (that remarkably uncommon attribute) should prevail and yes, of course emergencies or unexpected events happen and yes of course an auditor isn't going to (or shouldn't) just pack up their marbles and leave in a huff.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#18
Is this considered as nonconformity? In case which clause violated? 5.1 Management commitment?
1st, clauses aren't violated, requirements are not conformed to.

2nd, Management Committment? Based on what? There are 5,768 & 1/2 reasons why your Guide could absent himself.

At best (or worst) this is a situation that will get your Guide's fanny chewed on by his boss, but it's not a system issue, it's a matter of personal conduct.
 
J

JaneB

#19
:topic:
... a situation that will get your Guide's fanny chewed on by his boss...
The mental picture that conjures up is... um... interesting.

Also :topic:
In case anyone needs this graphic figure of speech translated, Randy is saying the boss will be cross and will reprimand the guide (tell him off).
 

harry

Super Moderator
#20
This is a question which is often used for group discussion.

The 'theoretical' answer is to wait for a while and if you still don't see him, to contact your lead auditor (if there is one). If not, contact your counterpart (the QMR) and get moving from there.

I think the answer is not important because I doubt you will get a similar question. What is more important is for you to understand that there will be questions which test you on your reactions or response to certain 'situational' factors - bearing in mind the attributes that a good auditor should have.
 
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