What to do when the auditors guide does not return

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#21
1st, clauses aren't violated, requirements are not conformed to.

2nd, Management Committment? Based on what? There are 5,768 & 1/2 reasons why your Guide could absent himself.

At best (or worst) this is a situation that will get your Guide's fanny chewed on by his boss, but it's not a system issue, it's a matter of personal conduct.
:topic:

The mental picture that conjures up is... um... interesting.

Also :topic:
In case anyone needs this graphic figure of speech translated, Randy is saying the boss will be cross and will reprimand the guide (tell him off).
OK. That's the English translation. Could we have it translated into "Ozzie," please?;)
 
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somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
The fixing of auditor guide is an operational requirement for the smooth and timely completion of the audit process. These are either said in the contract or discussed out in the opening meetings. It will help if more than one guide is nominated and the lead auditor / auditor keeps the contact number of the guide(s) and the MR just in case any delay is faced, so that contact can be made and smooth progress continued.
It can also be made clear in the opening meeting that in case the guide is not available at the needed time, the auditee who was with the auditor will guide to the next process per the schedule.
Being a guide is a very good training in itself to that person about audit methodology. A good MR / management can make sure guides are suitably nominated and ensure their responsible managers understand that and do not drag them out of that process.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#23
This is a question which is often used for group discussion.

The 'theoretical' answer is to wait for a while and if you still don't see him, to contact your lead auditor (if there is one). If not, contact your counterpart (the QMR) and get moving from there.

I think the answer is not important because I doubt you will get a similar question. What is more important is for you to understand that there will be questions which test you on your reactions or response to certain 'situational' factors - bearing in mind the attributes that a good auditor should have.
I think Harry has truly captured the intent of questions like this on exams for auditing students. The right answer shows that the auditor can "go with the flow" and not immediately jump to any conclusions, certainly not in as short a time as five minutes. Auditors are continually bombarded with the concept that only documented data is pertinent, not anecdotal, yet for an auditor to attach any nefarious meaning to a momentary absence of a guide says more about the state of mind of the auditor than the conditions at the auditing site. In fact, being left alone shows that the guide has faith in the auditor who will NOT complain to a boss and get the guide (and the supervisor who called him away) in trouble (a la Randy's example of a boss dining on raw gluteus maximus.)
 
K

Ka Pilo

#24
1st, clauses aren't violated, requirements are not conformed to.

2nd, Management Committment? Based on what? There are 5,768 & 1/2 reasons why your Guide could absent himself.

At best (or worst) this is a situation that will get your Guide's fanny chewed on by his boss, but it's not a system issue, it's a matter of personal conduct.
So, the issue is nonstandard.

Either delaying tactics used by the organization for its own particular purposes, or a real emergency situation.

The challenge is "how to prevent it from happening?" (could be addressed by a written agreement?)

Sorry for poor choice of word.
 
#25
I think it's worth considering why this question is being asked of a student! With reference to ISO 19011, a key point is the development of rational thinking and actions on behalf of the auditor, not to second guess why such events happen - the "delaying tactics" etc. We can debate until the proverbial cows return, without identifying the required attributes of the auditor, to deal with such situations.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#26
Can anyone help me with the below question
An auditor is conducting a third party QMS audit and the guide that has been appointed to accompany him is called away by his supervisor. After five minutes, the guide has not returned.
What should the auditor do?
  1. The auditor should wait for the guide to return.
  2. If the delay causes problems, the auditor should bring it up in the closing meeting and perhaps suggest that the organization should have a plan for such occurrences--having a backup guide, for example.
What should the auditor not do?
  1. The auditor should not jump to conclusions regarding the reason(s) that the guide was called away.
  2. The auditor should not make a big stink about the guide being away for a short time, but see #2 above.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#27
So, the issue is nonstandard.

Either delaying tactics used by the organization for its own particular purposes, or a real emergency situation.

The challenge is "how to prevent it from happening?" (could be addressed by a written agreement?)

Sorry for poor choice of word.
How to keep it from happening? In the world of CB's folks can be paying upwards of $200 or more an hour on average for an auditor to be standing around playing pocket pool waiting on a Guide who decided to do whatever and the written agreement is the contract that everyone works under.....Basically, "If you want the cert you have to meet these requirements......."

It's nothing but part of Basic Business 101.
 
S

samsung

#28
From this discussion, one thing I couldn't follow why a guide should matter so much in an audit if the 'guide' isn't the auditee him/herself? What crucial role does a guide play except showing the auditor the way to the area and getting him/her introduced with the auditee? Rest is to be taken care by the auditee of the area concerned, IMO.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#29
From this discussion, one thing I couldn't follow why a guide should matter so much in an audit if the 'guide' isn't the auditee him/herself? What crucial role does a guide play except showing the auditor the way to the area and getting him/her introduced with the auditee? Rest is to be taken care by the auditee of the area concerned, IMO.
The guide is often helpful in answering questions that auditees can't answer (and shouldn't necessarily be expected to be able to answer) or in knowing where to get the answers.

Aside from that, the audit generally can't proceed if the guide (or an acceptable substitute) isn't present.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#30
From this discussion, one thing I couldn't follow why a guide should matter so much in an audit if the 'guide' isn't the auditee him/herself? What crucial role does a guide play except showing the auditor the way to the area and getting him/her introduced with the auditee? Rest is to be taken care by the auditee of the area concerned, IMO.
Because many times and in many places without a guide to help you could get hurt or killed stepping where you shouldn't or going through the wrong door! T here are times that for security reason you cannot go unescorted...Sometimes an escort has to take you to and from the the bathroom facilities. Also a good guide is essential for effective time management.
 
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