What to do when the auditors guide does not return

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#41
In my experience it's usually the management representative who accompanies the auditor for the most part, but there are times when he/she will break away briefly (which is the subject of the original query) and leave the auditor with an auditee. Whether that's a good idea depends a lot on the circumstances, such as whether the person being questioned is a manager or other well-versed person or a machine operator who might not be comfortable with the whole situation, or someone who's known to be in the habit of giving 10-minute answers to yes-or-no questions.

When there's an auditor who's never been to my company before (or who has been but before I came) I like to be there the whole time if I can, just to get to know the auditor's habits and idiosyncrasies, and manage the process if it's necessary. Sometimes auditors talk too much, too.
Excellent points, Jim!
One thing I like is the word 'escort' which is more appropriate and relevant to the task the guy is assigned with. I was much confused with the term 'guide' in the beginning of the thread.

I didn't say it's not a good practice. It has some advantages and may add some value to the whole purpose of getting the system audited by a third party (assuming an escort is needed for third party audits only). I fully agree. I just described what I've seen here and heard of and as I said before, till now we didn't face any problem with this practice (that's in no way to signify that what we have been practicing is the best practice).

Now, with regard to escorting the auditor, he is all the time escorted by an auditee, (well clarified by Jim in his previous post) not a person but an entire department headed by a person not below the level of General Manager and supported by a team of managers and engineers. So, even if the trail of audit undergoes an abrupt and unexpected change (and it does), it doesn't adversely affect the audit process.

So far I considered a 'guide' like a quality manager or a dedicated person(s) who all the time remain associated with the audit team.

Thanks
For all the reasons given by many in the foregoing posts, an auditee is different things in different companies. It is just as wrong to characterize an auditee as a manager of a department as it is to characterize him/her as an operator who cannot speak the language of the auditor. In fact, the auditee can be anyone from the janitor to the CEO. There is no general rule as to whether every auditor must be escorted by a guide as if he were handcuffed to the guide, nor is there a rule to drop the auditor off at the door and let him proceed on his own hook wherever the mood strikes him.

The point I've been trying to make is the situation as presented to the OP leaves too many "what if" questions for there to be a hard and fast answer. In answering, the student who gets a question like that must display his knowledge that there is a range of conditions which may pertain and the auditor must make his decision on how to proceed based on the particular sense of conditions which exist at that particular moment. These may include the status of the person he is left with, the status of the audit to that moment, the danger or safety of being left without a specific escort, even whether there has been a systematic atmosphere of delaying or camouflaging activity to hide things from the auditor. Remember, sometimes things are simple, and sometimes they are terribly complicated, but we hope to train our auditors to be able to deal with new situations, not try to cram each new situation into a pre-set mold.
 
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J

JaneB

#42
:topic:
OK. That's the English translation. Could we have it translated into "Ozzie," please?;)
Umm, the politer version might be 'the boss will kick him in the bum' and the less polite one: ''he'll get his arse kicked by the boss'.

In the US, you often use the word 'ass' which more or less is equivalent to our use of the word 'bum' (ie, bottom). 'Ass' doesn't seem to be considered as rude as the word I've used above is here (and in England also), and given the globalisation of culture and the pervasiveness of US culture, we also use it sometimes and certainly understand its use.
 
S

samsung

#44
For all the reasons given by many in the foregoing posts, an auditee is different things in different companies. It is just as wrong to characterize an auditee as a manager of a department as it is to characterize him/her as an operator who cannot speak the language of the auditor. In fact, the auditee can be anyone from the janitor to the CEO. There is no general rule as to whether every auditor must be escorted by a guide as if he were handcuffed to the guide, nor is there a rule to drop the auditor off at the door and let him proceed on his own hook wherever the mood strikes him.
I don't agree with your statement that an auditee could be anyone in the organization and also it means differently for different organization. If so what's the point in having a MS conforming to certain standards. How could a CEO or an operator be an auditee? It would be more appropriate to say that anyone in the organization can be an interviewee, but not the auditee.

The term auditee is well defined in 19011:

3.7
auditee
organization being audited
and 'organization' as (ISO 9000:2005)

3.3.1
organization
group of people and facilities with an arrangement of responsibilities, authorities and relationships

EXAMPLE Company, corporation, firm, enterprise, institution, charity, sole trader, association, or parts or combination thereof.
 
J

JaneB

#45
It would be more appropriate to say that anyone in the organization can be an interviewee, but not the auditee.
For what it's worth, I do agree with Wes on this one.
Now, of course you can use the term 'interviewee' although it isn't an exact equivalent - it loses the meaning associated with being interviewed as part of an audit.
English has a strong habit of adding the -ee suffix to indicate who is the object of the action (vs the -er suffix to indicate the subject). Hence employer - employee, auditor - auditee. And so forth.

I'm sure you're aware that the term auditee is in widespread and common use. So why insist on this - is it a bit hair-splitting?

PS I don't agree with you that the term auditee is 'well defined' in 19011.
 
J

JaneB

#47
OK. What about your decision if I remove 'well' from the above sentence? I'm sure you still won't agree.
You're right.

But since you insist, the term auditee is perfectly proper and in accordance with the definitions listed.

An individual auditee is simply a member (or 'part') of the organisation being audited.

But you probably won't agree with that reasoning, either. :frust: Which I'm fine with. :lol:

If you still want to try standing in front of, and turning back, a tidal wave of opinion with which you don't agree, then that could be called a brave stance. Good luck with that one.
 
S

samsung

#48
An individual auditee is simply a member (or 'part') of the organisation being audited.
Jane, you will appreciate that there can't be a term like 'individual auditee' at the first place. An 'auditee' is an 'organization' and an 'organization' can't be an 'individual' (by any reasoning and in any language) but a group of individuals.

BTW, this is what the standards say:notme:. But still you can "be fine with your own reasoning"
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#49
Jane, you will appreciate that there can't be a term like 'individual auditee' at the first place. An 'auditee' is an 'organization' and an 'organization' can't be an 'individual' (by any reasoning and in any language) but a group of individuals.

BTW, this is what the standards say:notme:. But still you can "be fine with your own reasoning"
Could you relent enough to consider that many of us use the shorthand
"auditee"
instead of the more cumbersome, but absolutely correct phrase"
"full- or part-time worker of whatever rank within the organization being audited whom the auditor is observing or questioning at a particular point in the auditor's tour."
Further that "guide" is interchangeable with "escort" and does not necessarily mean that on every occasion the guide is a font of knowledge about everything in the organization which may pertain to the subject of an audit, but he could be.

I am sure there are some auditors out there who have audited relatively small organizations who have been escorted or accompanied on the audit tour by a relatively high-ranking member of management (simply because no one else is available) and the management person may or may not be the management representative. I am also sure that some of those same organizations being audited may have been so physically small and safe from hazards that the guide or escort may feel justified to leave an auditor with the person being observed for a few minutes while the escort answers a call of nature or an important telephone call (after all, this escort could very well be the only one who can answer an urgent phone call from a customer or for a family emergency at home.)

I am also just as sure there are some auditors out there who have been part of an audit team at a very large organization who never see the entire operation, but only the small segment to which they are assigned while other members of the team see the remaining parts and each team member is escorted by a different guide whose sole duty is to see that the auditor gets to and from the various stations on his pre-planned route safely and efficiently and that same guide does not monitor questions being asked of other individuals by the auditor.

As many of us have said - the point of the question when posed to a student is to elicit the concept that each audit is unique and circumstances of the moment determine an auditor's course of action, NOT a rigid reliance on one ironclad immutable set of responses regardless of the circumstance. If every auditor (internal or external) were to be so rigid, we would defeat the idea of an international Standard being a guide for organizations to adapt to their needs and revert back to the bad old days when most people in the quality profession, especially auditors and inspectors, were regarded as evil Kwality Kops.
 
S

samsung

#50
Could you relent enough to consider that many of us use the shorthand
"auditee"
instead of the more cumbersome, but absolutely correct phrase"
"full- or part-time worker of whatever rank within the organization being audited whom the auditor is observing or questioning at a particular point in the auditor's tour."
Where have you brought this "absolutely correct phrase" from? Can you please quote any single standard reference in support of its legitimacy? It's necessary because when you are conveying your message to masses (including students), your contentions must be based on well established and internationally acceptable references. It's just not simply about winning an argument.
 
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