What's the 2007 value of ASQ and certifications?

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#1
Hello Fellow Covers,

So far all the posts in this thread have been negative about ASQ.
I understand the points that are made and concerns that were raised.

But, does anyone have any suggestions how ASQ can be improved?
How they can better serve their members?
Or, is there even a future for ASQ?

Stijloor.

P.S. I am a long-time ASQ member.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Suggestion to "green" ASQ - Option to not receive the magazine

But, does anyone have any suggestions how ASQ can be improved?
How they can better serve their members?
Or, is there even a future for ASQ?
So long as people keep sending them money, and lusting after their meaningless certifications, nothing will change.
 
W

wmarhel

#4
Re: Suggestion to "green" ASQ - Option to not receive the magazine

Yep, I do and I won't mince any words.

Stand up, push the handle and flush!

We never would have expected anything else. :)

But seriously, ASQ seems to have lost it's purpose in life. It has just taken on the appearance of something without a direction when it has solid, recognized programs already in place. Take CQE certification for instance, which has been basically replaced wtih Six Sigma. ASQ is partially to blame for that because they weren't beating the drum and driving home the relevance and contribution which could be made by a CQE.

Lean is the same way. SME has a solid certification program, along with other organizations, and ASQ is coming along late in the game to jump on the bandwagon. This seems to be a systemic problem. Let's see what the hot topic is in the marketplace and jump on the bandwagon to make some money. How about being "the" leader in a field of expertise, which is what I feel ASQ has stepped away from being? It is just too fragmented.

I think ASQ was once a very respected organization, one which people went to first, regarding questions and concerns about quality topics. Based on conversations I've had with other individuals, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

When it comes to quality, I usually direct people here to the Cove before I suggest ASQ as a source of information.

Wayne

PS: When referring people to the Cove, be sure to warn them that Randy's bark is worse than his bite. :notme:
 

gpainter

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Re: Suggestion to "green" ASQ - Option to not receive the magazine

I joined ASQC back in September of 1995. My main reason was the wealth of information for ISO and QS. I had trouble finding anything on ISO, was able to find only one book at the IU library. I do not use it as often but keep my membership up. I do try to attend a few meetings a year, usually have some good speakers and good tours. My new company pays for it (i believe it was 109 last year and now 120 this year), but I paid for it prior. Many companies like to see it on your resume'. Some companies use only ASQ members for training. I know a consultant who joined for just that reason and picked up several clients just because of ASQ membership.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#6
Re: Suggestion to "green" ASQ - Option to not receive the magazine

PS: When referring people to the Cove, be sure to warn them that Randy's bark is worse than his bite. :notme:

That's because a bunch of them got knocked out and 4 got shot out when I was on the street.:lol:
 

Brizilla

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
Re: Suggestion to "green" ASQ - Option to not receive the magazine

So long as people keep sending them money, and lusting after their meaningless certifications, nothing will change.
As much as I hold Jim in awe of his experience and knowledge (shameless groveling) I have to totally disagree with his view. I recently finished a hiring search that started in Jan. I hired a 2nd shift quality tech. I needed someone with ace mechanical inspection skills, the ability to train and coach others in inspection techniques and print interpretation and the ability to learn new stuff. We interviewed 20 or so people from the 100+ apps we received. I put ads in two newspapers, here at the Cove, AsQ's website, and at Career Builder. We made two previous offers along the way. One was 4 hours late the other used it as leverage to get a better position. I received a resume from Career Builder from someone who'd worked at a bank the last 4 year. I almost dismissed it under the "not currently experience in my field" category. At the top of here resume though was "certifications" ASQ Certified Quality Technician, ASQ Certified Quality Auditor. I thought hmmmmm let's bring her in. She interviewed well, aced our company test, scored so high on our practical quality test that I had to make an offer to her before she could get out of the building. She'll finish up a months training at the end of the week and move to 2nd shift next week. Her base skills were excellent, she had just been out of the business for awhile. In my experience, the lower levels of those "meaningless" certifications provide a very good indication of their base skill sets, ability to learn, and to some degree a certain level of dedication to their craft. Without the certifications everyone else is just a hodgepodge of skill that you hope will be a good fit.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
Re: Suggestion to "green" ASQ - Option to not receive the magazine

As much as I hold Jim in awe of his experience and knowledge (shameless groveling) I have to totally disagree with his view. I recently finished a hiring search that started in Jan. I hired a 2nd shift quality tech. I needed someone with ace mechanical inspection skills, the ability to train and coach others in inspection techniques and print interpretation and the ability to learn new stuff. We interviewed 20 or so people from the 100+ apps we received. I put ads in two newspapers, here at the Cove, AsQ's website, and at Career Builder. We made two previous offers along the way. One was 4 hours late the other used it as leverage to get a better position. I received a resume from Career Builder from someone who'd worked at a bank the last 4 year. I almost dismissed it under the "not currently experience in my field" category. At the top of here resume though was "certifications" ASQ Certified Quality Technician, ASQ Certified Quality Auditor. I thought hmmmmm let's bring her in. She interviewed well, aced our company test, scored so high on our practical quality test that I had to make an offer to her before she could get out of the building. She'll finish up a months training at the end of the week and move to 2nd shift next week. Her base skills were excellent, she had just been out of the business for awhile. In my experience, the lower levels of those "meaningless" certifications provide a very good indication of their base skill sets, ability to learn, and to some degree a certain level of dedication to their craft. Without the certifications everyone else is just a hodgepodge of skill that you hope will be a good fit.
You got lucky--it's as simple as that. I find it interesting that people who hold ASQ certification in high regard often use competent certified people as exemplars for the value of certification. I find it interesting because any competent CQE (for example) should understand that with a complex subject like competence in a technical discipline, there are many variables, and we should all know that just because phenomenon "A" precedes phenomenon "B" doesn't mean that "A" caused, or was even a factor, in the occurrence of "B." This is the logical fallacy called post hoc ergo prompter hoc (After this, therefore because of this).

I personally have seen far too many incompetent certified people to give it any weight whatsoever in hiring decisions. Nonetheless, I probably should modify the "meaningless" jab. If it helps you to get a job, it has some value, although not necessarily to the company doing the hiring.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#9
Oh my. Such a firework show doth spring up with this subject.

Can't argue, certs are no guarantee of competence, just as registering to ISO this-or-that does not guarantee quality.

Arguably a college degree similarly does not guarantee competence, so long as a person does not actively and earnestly engage the learnings inferred from passing all those classes. I observed some teachers that should not have been in the classrooms...:rolleyes:

And so, buyer beware as always. The cert process's value is directly corellated with the ability and willingless of a certified person to use it, and his/her organization's ability and willingness to allow him/her to use it to the best of his/her ability.

One thing is certain though. In the absence of other structured professional development, the cert process is a good means to build one's body of knowledge and prepare, hopefully, to contribute it for our good and our employers' good. :cfingers:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#10
Re: Suggestion to "green" ASQ - Option to not receive the magazine

You got lucky--it's as simple as that. I find it interesting that people who hold ASQ certification in high regard often use competent certified people as exemplars for the value of certification. I find it interesting because any competent CQE (for example) should understand that with a complex subject like competence in a technical discipline, there are many variables, and we should all know that just because phenomenon "A" precedes phenomenon "B" doesn't mean that "A" caused, or was even a factor, in the occurrence of "B." This is the logical fallacy called post hoc ergo prompter hoc (After this, therefore because of this).

I personally have seen far too many incompetent certified people to give it any weight whatsoever in hiring decisions. Nonetheless, I probably should modify the "meaningless" jab. If it helps you to get a job, it has some value, although not necessarily to the company doing the hiring.
I don't know, Jim. I think maybe you're being a little harsh.

Scenario:

Unknown Candidate #1 - Resume with certifications or degrees.

Unknown Candidate #2 - Equivalent Resume but without certifications or degrees.

Analysis:

Unknown Candidate #2 is not necessarily incompetent or less competent. However, Unknown Candidate #1 is not necessarily better, either. However, he has demonstrated some achievement or effort by achieving the certifications or degrees.

Certifications or degrees say something, it just is not a blanket guarantee. There are other factors to evaluate as well.


I once got a job in my early years because he thought I "looked good in a suit," and wouldn't embarass him around the other executives he mingled with... hey, whatever it takes...
 
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