When and when not to write up minor internal audit findings?

R

Rockanna

#1
An employee suggestion was received stating that if we did not document minor findings we could save the company +240 man hours to make those corrections.
What's your opinion? Should minor findings be written up for folks not following work instructions?
 
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Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
An employee suggestion was received stating that if we did not document minor findings we could save the company +240 man hours to make those corrections.
What's your opinion? Should minor findings be written up for folks not following work instructions?
The +240 hours, how was that determined?

In my opinion, if there is something that did not meet the requirements, it needs to be documented. If the finding isn't documented by the internal audit system it would most likely be documented during registration (if registered) audit.
 

MajorBVNaik

Involved In Discussions
#3
An employee suggestion was received stating that if we did not document minor findings we could save the company +240 man hours to make those corrections.
What's your opinion? Should minor findings be written up for folks not following work instructions?
Dear Sir,
I feel that we should document all the findings however small the may appear. This is because it is very difficult to define what is small & what is a major NC. Most importantly once people get into the habit of not documenting the NCs, it is difficult to change.
The amount of money you will save by documenting the NCs, conducting root cause analysis, taking CAs & PAs, will be much more than the money/man hours you spend.
Major B V Naik
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#4
An employee suggestion was received stating that if we did not document minor findings we could save the company +240 man hours to make those corrections.
What's your opinion? Should minor findings be written up for folks not following work instructions?
I'll admit that we write up all findings, but we do word them in such a way to make them value-added to the organization and this includes considering the level of risk to the organization (i.e., what could potentially occur by deviating from the documented process).

How are your auditors writing up the findings? "People are not following the documented process?" Try this..."Documented process and actual practice do not match." This then takes the focus off of the people and has everyone asking why there has occurred. Yes, it could be people or, maybe the process has changed.

Essentially, rather than write up every single occurence, our auditors look to group the occurrences (if possible). If there is an apparently lack of adherence to the documented process within a department, the finding is written up as a Major issue, citing the individual examples as the evidence for justifying the level of the issue. This then requires root cause analysis by the recipient (go ahead and slap it on the Dept Manager's desk...get the big guy/gal involved!). Maybe people aren't following the document because it's wrong...maybe people have found a better way to do something but the document does not yet reflect this improved process with improved results. Let the recipient figure out WHY all of the little issues have added up to one biggie.

If you can not group the occurrences together, word the findings in such a way to highlight the level of risk to the organization. Imply environmental or safety repercussions...and if you aren't comfortable with writing the possible outcomes, ensuring that they are verbally explained in the closing meeting.

Another option to consider is that if you have so many occurrences of little deviations happening, it might be time for some data analysis which may spark "Recommendations for Improvement" to be discussed during your next Management Review. 240+ hours implies a few things...perhaps you have lots of deviations from the process or perhaps you have a lot of bad documents or perhaps your people aren't really fixing the issues (240 hours?!?! What the heck are they doing when they get this nonconformances?!?!)...time to delve a little deeper into the situation, my friend, and determine what is truly going on with your processes and documentation.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#5
Should minor findings be written up for folks not following work instructions?
If it is 'folks' plural, there is a problem. If it is one isolated incident, that's a whole different story.

If you find one person forgets to date a form once, for example, I wouldn't even write it up.
If one person does this many times, it's probably a training or discipline issue.
If many people do not complete documentation as required a corrective action investigation (Corrective action is the issue here) is warranted.

Write-ups do not take significant time. Corrective action investigations, typically, do take significant time.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
An employee suggestion was received stating that if we did not document minor findings we could save the company +240 man hours to make those corrections.
What's your opinion? Should minor findings be written up for folks not following work instructions?
yes. not following work instructions is a non conformance. non conformances should be written up to show that you are monitoring the system.

but these write ups should address WHY the work instruction was not being followed in order to add value to the finding.
Is there a better way? Are the multiple acceptable ways? Is the process over documented such that there doesn't really need to be a work instruction? Is it simply laziness?

There shuold be a system to allow innovation. I've seen this done with a very simple deviation request that anyone can fill out and submit.
supervision then reviews the deviation and if it makes sense incorporates it into the process as acceptable practice.
 
#7
An employee suggestion was received stating that if we did not document minor findings we could save the company +240 man hours to make those corrections.
What's your opinion? Should minor findings be written up for folks not following work instructions?
We're missing the point here. So, we know about the grading (and I've posted here many times that internal auditors shouldn't grade nc's, that's an external audit technique), but we don't know what's being written up as the content of the finding.

I can tell you from over 20 years experience of auditing and teaching auditing that being told "you're not following procedure/instruction" isn't a complete story. Management don't assume that the documentation is correct, and often it isn't. Therefore they only get confused and resentful of the findings, especially when the issue isn't on their 'radar screen'!!

In addition to the management response, auditors often forget to find out if the results the 'folks' get is any good, which is more to the point and is helpful in determining what to do to correct the situation.

It's a mantra auditors need to stop chanting. Get to the results of the process and be helpful to the 'folks', don't just give them half the story.......

Andy

PS I'm thinking you should take the employee with the suggestion and make them an internal auditor..........seriously(!)
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#8
An employee suggestion was received stating that if we did not document minor findings we could save the company +240 man hours to make those corrections.
What's your opinion? Should minor findings be written up for folks not following work instructions?
I am one to hold up the torch of employee involvement. But vocabulary such as the employee's suggestion is a dangerous combustible. Getting management on the path of saving money by reducing observations is the first nail in the coffin.

1. Are these minor findings coming from within (internal auditors)? If so, are they proficient enough in their training? Are they writing up the non-conformances appropriately?

2. If they are proficient and doing their job correctly, then your organization must have one mammoth quality system, with lengthy procedures around every corner.

3. If 1 and 2 are incorrect, you have management not enforcing the quality system. If they will change the culture and use the quality system, they will save a whole lot more than 240 man hours.
 
D

Duke Okes

#9
Write-ups do not take significant time. Corrective action investigations, typically, do take significant time.
For me this is the issue. All NCs should be written up, but only those that are repetitive, or that involve significant risk abd/or cost, etc. should require a formal corrective action investigation.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#10
For me this is the issue. All NCs should be written up, but only those that are repetitive, or that involve significant risk abd/or cost, etc. should require a formal corrective action investigation.

You are incorrect in your assumption if you are performing QMS audits.

ISO 9001
8.5.2 Corrective action
The organization shall take action to eliminate the cause of nonconformities in order to prevent recurrence.


A NC means that something is broke. It's kinda like being a little bit pregnant.

Additionally the term FINDING is being used incorrectly. If you are going to be referencing something like ISO 19011 get the terms correct in their usage to help "folks" to understand the real issues.

ISO 19011:2002, Clause 3.4
audit findings
results of the evaluation of the collected audit evidence (3.3) against audit criteria (3.2)
NOTE Audit findings can indicate either conformity or nonconformity with audit criteria or opportunities for improvement.


Every small NC has the potential to become a big one. I'd also wager that NC's outnumber OFI's or PA's.
 
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