When do you say that you are ready for Third-Party Certification?

[JaneB]

I gave a presentation to my executive committee outlining each department in the company. Each group was given a % of readiness (formed from my opinion) and then I gave a short list stating what they have complete and what needs more attention. That helped me out quite a bit.

Yes, that's a good technique. And helps highlight deficient areas/departments and where action is needed.
Plus, it says to management: here's the problems as I see them ... and here is what needs to be done to fix them.

 

[Drew G]

Hi drew,

I was out last week that's why I wasn't able to make replies..anyway, it feels great knowing that there are people like you (and Ms. Jane) who are open to give advice...I appreciate that so much. Thanks also to helmut.

Right now, I'm busy preparing procedures - as usual. People here lacks the time doing their own procedures and forms...I'm waiting for a "go-signal" from the management on the schedule of our Management Committee meeting. I have prepared some data to use for the "wake-up call" meeting.

Many thanks to all!!! I have to speak with our CB regarding the schedule of our Stage 1 audit...but I'm still waiting for the final schedule - i hope this time its really the final one...we are quite accustomed with "moving target" here - its in our system which is very hard to deal with - people just can't commit...

Cheers

Thanks Onayt,


It is my pleasure . I am not going anywhere, so please let me know how your Stage 1 audit went. I am not suggesting that you do not have this, but for your meetings remember that you must have passion and great organization prior to meetings, etc. You must relay this passion to your group somehow, it could be the tone of your voice, not tolerating off-topic discussions that consume valuable time, and on the same token assuring your staff that you are not trying to create robotic or sterile environments! If you (you are the quality coordinator/manager right?) are not passionate, then how can you expect your management team to be passionate? Sometimes I feel people need to make their passion so visible that it is literally felt by others (look up "zeal", not to be confused with fanaticism, although very close!!), and in that way your passion becomes contagious to others and you will find people aspiring to you, and being very agreeable with you.


Again, let me know how things turn out; keep us posted!


Thanks,
G

 

[Drew G]

Yes, that's a good technique. And helps highlight deficient areas/departments and where action is needed.
Plus, it says to management: here's the problems as I see them ... and here is what needs to be done to fix them.

Dear Jane ,

You are absolutely right. When discussing a problem, always be sure to present your idea for a solution. If you do not, then you will appear to lack critical thinking and/or planning ability. Top Management will notice this, and they especially rely on you discussing a problem and adding your proposed solution. If you do not have the best solution, at least you have a starting point to begin discussion. If your solution is not the best, then ask your staff, "what do you think is the next best alternative?". This puts your staff in a position where they must advance toward a better solution than what you proposed since that is what they are insinuating if they do not like your solution. In other words, make them put their money where their mouth is. Of course you cannot do this if you have not proposed a solution yourself first, and have not asked your staff what they think is the next best alternative.

Thanks!

G

 

[Onayt]

Hi Drew!

We passed the Stage 1 Audit and was told that we are ready for the Stage 2 Audit in a month's time...this is where the big question lies??? are we really THAT ready? I am scheduling an internal audit on the first week of August to check our readiness, however, my internal audit team is very busy with their work loads...that leaves me alone to do the audit, which would be very hard on my part.

Thanks for the advices and I am hoping and praying that we get certified after all these challenges...=)

 

[Hunter36]

Hi Andy,

Do you really need a 3rd party to come in and tell you your underwear is dirty? If you are paying attention to your internal audits, top management reviews, and keeping up with your QMS then I think you should consider not seeking certification.

I am new so sorry if this sounds weird!

Thank-you.
Andy

Here's my view: No I don't need to check to see if your underwear is dirty. I could just take your word for it. But if Jim, James, and Tonya ALSO tell me your underwear isn't dirty, then now I have more confidence that you are not full of poop, nor is your underwear.

I guess what I'm getting at, is the point of a certification is to provide your customers with faith in your system so that they DON'T have to come audit your company. Most companies are not seeking new vendors and without a cert, especially in the aerospace industry where you frequently deal with military contracts, you will never get your foot in the door.

Also, let's say your company ever did have a serious problem that required lot traceability and records to show the source of a part, with an outside approved QMS I would THINK you are a little less liable for negligence, seeing as how your QMS had been approved by a qualified auditor.

Does this make sense?

 

[Hunter36]

Hi Drew!

We passed the Stage 1 Audit and was told that we are ready for the Stage 2 Audit in a month's time...this is where the big question lies??? are we really THAT ready? I am scheduling an internal audit on the first week of August to check our readiness, however, my internal audit team is very busy with their work loads...that leaves me alone to do the audit, which would be very hard on my part.

Thanks for the advices and I am hoping and praying that we get certified after all these challenges...=)

congrats on passing the stage 1. Typically if you got this far your going to get all the way. If they approved your QM, and you actually use your QM appropriately, than you should be fine. They will find problems. That is their job. But when they do, as far as I have experienced, they will typically tell you, provisionally approve you for certification, and then give you time to present the appropriate correct action forms to them showing that you are taking care of the small issues they had addressed. It is highly unlikely that you would pass the stage 1 and then FAIL the stage 2. That would imply that your quality manual is nothing more than a desk coaster, and I have faith that is not the case

For confidence sake I would make sure you have records in place to show your implementation. Additionally, your internal auditors should talk with the managers of each department and prepare your employees for any questions that might be asked. Sometimes an auditor will ask an employee to demonstrate a process, such as "show me how you take a purchase order?" and the employee that is not prepared freezes like a deer in headlights. It's all about confidence, make sure your fellow employees have some.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

It is highly unlikely that you would pass the stage 1 and then FAIL the stage 2. That would imply that your quality manual is nothing more than a desk coaster, and I have faith that is not the case

A stage 1 audit has clear limitations and is not designed to assess implementation aspects.
Many organizations suffer from wishful thinking when developing their command media, procedures, documents, process instructions and "design" processes that are not achievable at that stage. So, document-wise, the system is in great shape. But very little is actually implemented.

A very common failure mode, during stage 2 audits, is the scenario where the actual work/practice is not in line with the supporting documentation. It happens all the time.

 

[Hunter36]

A very common failure mode, during stage 2 audits, is the scenario where the actual work/practice is not in line with the supporting documentation. It happens all the time.

I could absolutely see that. But at some point not "practicing what you preach" is something you should be well aware of at this point in time from internal audits and gap analysis right? Or am I just being overly optimistic.

Perhaps I misspoke.
It's one thing to be doing it wrong, but not doing it at all? I feel to not acknowledge a lack of implementation of your own system would be reflective of the ignorance of your quality management staff, or insufficient resources to analyze and audit your main processes. Which if you are at the point of being concerned for failure of a stage 2, I'd expect you have done a significant amount of review of your QMS.

Statisically speaking, what % of companies would you say fails their stage 2 audits?

And how many of these are provisionally accepted vs outright failure.

I am curious because I am in same position as original thread poster, but perhaps a little over-confident on the system I have put into place thus far. and I know you are way more experienced than myself Sidney

I

 

[AndyN]

Statistically speaking, what % of companies would you say fails their stage 2 audits?

And how many of these are provisionally accepted vs outright failure.

I am curious because I am in same position as original thread poster, but perhaps a little over-confident on the system I have put into place thus far. and I know you are way more experienced than myself Sidney

I

No-one knows! CBs don't share this type of info. Clients rarely do (except the successes!)
It's rare these days to have an 'outright failure' - whatever that might mean. It only takes 1 major, after all...In general terms, people get minors and they get registered...

That's, incidentally, one of the best reasons for signing up for a pre-assessment. You get to do a dress-rehearsal and fix any obvious issues before...

 

[Hunter36]

That's, incidentally, one of the best reasons for signing up for a pre-assessment. You get to do a dress-rehearsal and fix any obvious issues before...

Always an excellent idea. The registrar I intend to use actually has a mandatory pre-assessment stage rather than the usual optional. It's actually cheaper than most pre-assessments probably because they require it from their first time clients. They claim it is generally a necessity and helps them achieve a higher rate of certification for their clients.

I'd be to scared to proceed further without one. :mg: