When Is PPAP Required? What Should We send?

Richard.L.Holland

Starting to get Involved
Should one always send PPAP

:confused:
If a new customer does not ask for PPAP, should one send them under QS-9000 - or should you ask do you want them?
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Should one always send PPAP

I think if the customer is automotive, then you need to at least ask them what they want submitted. In the PPAP manual I.4 talks about the different submission levels. Level 3 is the default level unless otherwise specified by the customer. In all cases you need to maintain the data anyway, it just depends on how much your customer wants to receive.
 
B

Bob_M

Re: Re: Should one always send PPAP

I Agree its best to ask. Actually you probably should have asked during the quoting / contract review stage.

howste said:
I think if the customer is automotive, then you need to at least ask them what they want submitted. In the PPAP manual I.4 talks about the different submission levels. Level 3 is the default level unless otherwise specified by the customer. In all cases you need to maintain the data anyway, it just depends on how much your customer wants to receive.

Does QS-9000 actually expect all non-QS suppliers to create all the documentation (not data) that is required for a full PPAP submission?

Example: We're not QS or TS (ISO:9001:1994 soon to be 9k2k) and we don't need stuff like FMEAS or PMEAS for normal jobs unless we're going to make a PPAP submission. (The first piece and material certs and part layout we'd naturually do/review as needed).
 
R

Randy Stewart

Be very careful

PPAP is costly, it is something that should be in the SOW and costed. If you automatically submit one, then you give the impression that they are free. There is no way that I could offer up the CMM time to do a PIST inspection or a 5 piece study on a door assembly. I would get killed tieing up the CMM for 10 - 14 hours at no charge. :eek:
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Leader
Admin
Richard,

See if you can locate a contract. In it, it should state the customers expectation. Follow it to the letter, or ask them for a letter of waiver.

Regards,

Kevin
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Re: Re: Should one always send PPAP

Bob_M said:
Does QS-9000 actually expect all non-QS suppliers to create all the documentation (not data) that is required for a full PPAP submission?
To be certified to QS-9000, you need to at least demonstrate that you have the ability to do PPAP if required. A company I used to work for achieved certification to QS-9000 in all of its plants. The plant I worked in supplied airbag parts, so PPAP was business as usual for us. Other plants supplied products like welding wire. The registrar required these plants to have one or more PPAPs in order to demonstrate that they could do it.
 
N

nancy chen

about the PPAP

If ISO/TS 16949 required that all suppliers must provide PPAP ?
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

nancy chen said:
If ISO/TS 16949 required that all suppliers must provide PPAP ?

7.3.6.3
The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer

That just agrees with the other responses that asking your customer is the "thing to do".

Bill
 
W

wslabey

CMM Time for PPAP

Randy Stewart said:
PPAP is costly, it is something that should be in the SOW and costed. If you automatically submit one, then you give the impression that they are free. There is no way that I could offer up the CMM time to do a PIST inspection or a 5 piece study on a door assembly. I would get killed tieing up the CMM for 10 - 14 hours at no charge. :eek:

Agreed, CMM time is costly and it has to be factored into your overall cost of doing business. Hopefully, the certainty it brings in terms of proving out capabiliity will, in the long run, be cheaper than not doing so.

In small volume programs we negotiate the sample sizes required for parts to be CMM'd and at which stages of development. We had one customer engineer who, if left unchecked, would have us CMM 30 parts in the initial tool trials, and again in pre-production and then finally for final tooling. Yikes, it got expensive, especially when it is small volume (5,000 units per year). We like to clarify those measurement requirements in the contract negotiation phase and statement of work.

Pricing PPAP as a line item that customer sees is usually greeted by the OEM customer quite negatively. It is kind of like waving a red flag in front of charging bull. Obviously, a full PPAP does have a fixed cost that needs to be recovered in the piece cost by either reducing defects, rework, scrap and customer ill-will. If, however, volumes are too small, and the mfg. process is already fairly capable, the added cost of full PPAP can and will erode the net contribution of the product to the bottom line.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Re: CMM Time for PPAP

wslabey said:
Agreed, CMM time is costly and it has to be factored into your overall cost of doing business. Hopefully, the certainty it brings in terms of proving out capabiliity will, in the long run, be cheaper than not doing so.

In small volume programs we negotiate the sample sizes required for parts to be CMM'd and at which stages of development. We had one customer engineer who, if left unchecked, would have us CMM 30 parts in the initial tool trials, and again in pre-production and then finally for final tooling. Yikes, it got expensive, especially when it is small volume (5,000 units per year). We like to clarify those mesaurement requirements in the contract negotiation phase and statement of work.
I pretty much agree this is a CONTRACT REVIEW situation. There are a lot of folks on the customer side who have absolutely no concept of the time and effort and resources which go into a full scale PPAP or even a complete First Article inspection. Maybe there are quite a few ignoramuses in the Supplier's own sales organization who think of any Quality input as "mere overhead" rather than as a bona fide line item of product cost.

Lately, I've encountered a lot of situations where the QMS and BMS of an organization seem to be working at cross purposes.

Usually, questions of this sort (give PPAP whether it is line item or not?) can be easily handled at the CONTRACT REVIEW stage, but only if the Quality folk are in the review loop.
 
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