When Is PPAP Required? What Should We send?

Elsmar Forum Sponsor

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Should one always send PPAP

I think if the customer is automotive, then you need to at least ask them what they want submitted. In the PPAP manual I.4 talks about the different submission levels. Level 3 is the default level unless otherwise specified by the customer. In all cases you need to maintain the data anyway, it just depends on how much your customer wants to receive.
 
B

Bob_M

#3
Re: Re: Should one always send PPAP

I Agree its best to ask. Actually you probably should have asked during the quoting / contract review stage.

howste said:
I think if the customer is automotive, then you need to at least ask them what they want submitted. In the PPAP manual I.4 talks about the different submission levels. Level 3 is the default level unless otherwise specified by the customer. In all cases you need to maintain the data anyway, it just depends on how much your customer wants to receive.
Does QS-9000 actually expect all non-QS suppliers to create all the documentation (not data) that is required for a full PPAP submission?

Example: We're not QS or TS (ISO:9001:1994 soon to be 9k2k) and we don't need stuff like FMEAS or PMEAS for normal jobs unless we're going to make a PPAP submission. (The first piece and material certs and part layout we'd naturually do/review as needed).
 
R

Randy Stewart

#4
Be very careful

PPAP is costly, it is something that should be in the SOW and costed. If you automatically submit one, then you give the impression that they are free. There is no way that I could offer up the CMM time to do a PIST inspection or a 5 piece study on a door assembly. I would get killed tieing up the CMM for 10 - 14 hours at no charge. :eek:
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#5
Richard,

See if you can locate a contract. In it, it should state the customers expectation. Follow it to the letter, or ask them for a letter of waiver.

Regards,

Kevin
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Re: Re: Should one always send PPAP

Bob_M said:
Does QS-9000 actually expect all non-QS suppliers to create all the documentation (not data) that is required for a full PPAP submission?
To be certified to QS-9000, you need to at least demonstrate that you have the ability to do PPAP if required. A company I used to work for achieved certification to QS-9000 in all of its plants. The plant I worked in supplied airbag parts, so PPAP was business as usual for us. Other plants supplied products like welding wire. The registrar required these plants to have one or more PPAPs in order to demonstrate that they could do it.
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#8
nancy chen said:
If ISO/TS 16949 required that all suppliers must provide PPAP ?
7.3.6.3
The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer

That just agrees with the other responses that asking your customer is the "thing to do".

Bill
 
W

wslabey

#9
CMM Time for PPAP

Randy Stewart said:
PPAP is costly, it is something that should be in the SOW and costed. If you automatically submit one, then you give the impression that they are free. There is no way that I could offer up the CMM time to do a PIST inspection or a 5 piece study on a door assembly. I would get killed tieing up the CMM for 10 - 14 hours at no charge. :eek:
Agreed, CMM time is costly and it has to be factored into your overall cost of doing business. Hopefully, the certainty it brings in terms of proving out capabiliity will, in the long run, be cheaper than not doing so.

In small volume programs we negotiate the sample sizes required for parts to be CMM'd and at which stages of development. We had one customer engineer who, if left unchecked, would have us CMM 30 parts in the initial tool trials, and again in pre-production and then finally for final tooling. Yikes, it got expensive, especially when it is small volume (5,000 units per year). We like to clarify those measurement requirements in the contract negotiation phase and statement of work.

Pricing PPAP as a line item that customer sees is usually greeted by the OEM customer quite negatively. It is kind of like waving a red flag in front of charging bull. Obviously, a full PPAP does have a fixed cost that needs to be recovered in the piece cost by either reducing defects, rework, scrap and customer ill-will. If, however, volumes are too small, and the mfg. process is already fairly capable, the added cost of full PPAP can and will erode the net contribution of the product to the bottom line.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
Re: CMM Time for PPAP

wslabey said:
Agreed, CMM time is costly and it has to be factored into your overall cost of doing business. Hopefully, the certainty it brings in terms of proving out capabiliity will, in the long run, be cheaper than not doing so.

In small volume programs we negotiate the sample sizes required for parts to be CMM'd and at which stages of development. We had one customer engineer who, if left unchecked, would have us CMM 30 parts in the initial tool trials, and again in pre-production and then finally for final tooling. Yikes, it got expensive, especially when it is small volume (5,000 units per year). We like to clarify those mesaurement requirements in the contract negotiation phase and statement of work.
I pretty much agree this is a CONTRACT REVIEW situation. There are a lot of folks on the customer side who have absolutely no concept of the time and effort and resources which go into a full scale PPAP or even a complete First Article inspection. Maybe there are quite a few ignoramuses in the Supplier's own sales organization who think of any Quality input as "mere overhead" rather than as a bona fide line item of product cost.

Lately, I've encountered a lot of situations where the QMS and BMS of an organization seem to be working at cross purposes.

Usually, questions of this sort (give PPAP whether it is line item or not?) can be easily handled at the CONTRACT REVIEW stage, but only if the Quality folk are in the review loop.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
V PPAP documentation - Submission required in English APQP and PPAP 3
P Customer wants a Part Material Change - New PPAP required? APQP and PPAP 3
M Is PPAP required in this situation? APQP and PPAP 5
V Is there a Heat Treat certification that is required at PPAP? APQP and PPAP 4
B Supplier changed their Manufacturing Process - Is a PPAP resubmission required? APQP and PPAP 17
I Where in the TS 16949 standard is Yearly PPAP Re-Validation Required IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
C Yearly resubmission of PPAP - Required by the PPAP manual? APQP and PPAP 7
K When is PPAP required? Do we have to use PPAP? APQP and PPAP 4
R Is Kappa Study Required during PPAP (Production Part Approval Process)? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
R Cohen's Kappa Study - is it required during PPAP? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
C Documentation required when doing a PPAP for a "Product Family" APQP and PPAP 6
Z Are PPAP Submissions required to be in English? PPAP Language APQP and PPAP 6
Stuart Andrews PPAP training slides required - will pay! APQP and PPAP 10
S PPAP Submission Required for Electronics Components i.e., Resistors, Capacitors, etc. APQP and PPAP 3
R Changing Suppliers - Customer (GM) PPAP required? APQP and PPAP 6
E Level 3 PPAP with only a few of the required documents? APQP and PPAP 3
M Engine Oil manufacturers and suppliers - Will PPAP be Required? Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 4
C What are the minimum required MSA studies for a TS 16949 PPAP? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
T PPAP and Raw Material - Is a PPAP required when switching raw material suppliers? APQP and PPAP 4
D What is a Level 3 PPAP? Blueprint says "Level 3 PPAP is required" APQP and PPAP 10
B Question about "When PPAP is required" - Tier 2 to GM - Fabric Density on Part APQP and PPAP 24
C New PPAP submission required when changing part number? APQP and PPAP 11
C How long we're required to keep supplier and our PPAP documents? Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 1
M When is PPAP required? Change in the floor plan layout? APQP and PPAP 5
P What gage studies are required for PPAP? APQP and PPAP 5
J Are PPAP's required on steel from suppliers? APQP and PPAP 4
C PPAP required by Customer not the same as the AIAG's PPAP Manual Requirements APQP and PPAP 2
A PPAP Submission NOT required by customer... but... Do I have to do it anyway? APQP and PPAP 8
W PPAP (Production Part Approval Process) - Clarify When submission is required APQP and PPAP 10
P Managing How PPAP Requirements are Communicated in the Manufacturing Process and to Suppliers APQP and PPAP 4
E Annual PPAP+ deviation request ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
K OEM specific requirements - PPAP was rejected by STA Customer and Company Specific Requirements 5
T PPAP for distributors? APQP and PPAP 1
A PPAP for Fire extinguisher APQP and PPAP 2
S PPAP Progress - Visual Status Board APQP and PPAP 0
C AS9145 Appendix D PPAP Approval Form APQP and PPAP 2
Pau Calvo PPAP customer requirements in the APQP APQP and PPAP 25
V 3 PQ lots mentioned as requirement in PPAP. Is this necessary? APQP and PPAP 2
B What is the role of Quality Engineer in APQP and PPAP APQP and PPAP 3
F How to submit PPAP without IMDS APQP and PPAP 10
GreatNate Excel PPAP Tracking templates or tool wanted APQP and PPAP 1
M Where can I find examples of PPAP? APQP and PPAP 6
R Process Specification - What is the name of this PPAP form? APQP and PPAP 15
I PPAP Assembly and Components Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
F PPAP Documentation Control APQP and PPAP 8
K PPAP Phases Vs PPAP Levels APQP and PPAP 2
R Plan to Volvo Cars for capacity verification in Phase 3 of PPAP Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
G Job interview - So I have to do a presentation on PPAP APQP and PPAP 16
J AIAG PPAP: 2.2.11.3 Acceptance Criteria for Initial Study (page 9, 4th edition) APQP and PPAP 1
M Level 3 PPAP submission of intentional defective parts APQP and PPAP 4

Similar threads

Top Bottom