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When someone refuses to follow a process....

#1
Hi, this is my first post here. I feel like I have been NEEDING to connect with other QMS and BMS professionals out there.

So I am writing to seek insight or others' experiences when someone in the company (higher up than yourself) just plain refuses to follow their process. It affects others quite significantly. I've asked this person to review some documents that they own, no response. Seems that they just plain refuse to play the ISO game. Now, I am not very high in the company, and my role is basically to keep the BMS updated just enough that we pass our audits. At least that is what it feels like.

What can I do? Someone told me to issue an 8D, but I do not have high hopes that person will even show for the meetings.

Advice and experiences welcome! :)
 
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Sidney Vianna

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Staff member
Admin
#2
refuse to play the ISO game.

Advice and experiences welcome! :)
"ISO game" might be a Freudian slip on how the organization perceives it's system. It should not be a game, but a system. Who knows, maybe this individual does not want to participate in something that s/he considers non value added. Until top management makes it abundantly clear that a system must be in place and accountability is mandated, very little anyone can do.

If processes are not followed and top management does not seem to care, there is nothing underlings can do, other than blow the whistle to an external auditor, if such opportunity shows up.
 
#3
ISO game is just my passive-aggressive comment towards it.

And yeah, I figure it's beyond my control... I might "lead" our external auditor though.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#4
One of the potential channels to bring up this lack of process discipline to the surface is to target an internal audit towards this process; internal audits should be scheduled based on status, importance and risks involved. If a process is knowingly adrift, such process should be audited with some urgency. The results of the internal audit would/should end up in some corrective action requests and the issue could be resolved in a "timely manner", but only (and once again) if top management keeps the individuals accountable to their responsibilities. I cannot overemphasize the importance of top management buy-in. If they are derelict, the system devolves into a game; an unwinnable one.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
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Super Moderator
#5
The results of the internal audit would/should end up in some corrective action requests and the issue could be resolved in a "timely manner", but only (and once again) if top management keeps the individuals accountable to their responsibility.
What he said. Ideally, the finding and CA would be reviewed in a Management Review meeting without you present.
Handles the issue, protects you, and you can then judge the outcome from that...

If you are present, you can be the target of action...at least on the first round, protect yourself from the blowback.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#6
Agree with Sidney and Ninja. Every horse can reserve the right to die of thirst. It appears that so far management is willing to tolerate this behavior for whatever reason. Pointing an auditor toward this could come back to you.

Do your best in your role, and let the system operate as it should; if nonconformities or waste result from this person's choices, then top management can deal with them - and him - once they decide they can no longer tolerate the status quo.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#7
I'm visiting next week where "the game" has resulted in 3 suspended certifications and almost double the duration/billing involving my team of 3 to verify the problem resolved. (Lot's and lot's of audit days that week......all rated High Risk per MD-5)

Amanda, very possibly your "game player" isn't aware of the potential direct cost of the game and maybe the direct investment that has been made to whatever point you are and the possible indirect costs because customers, investors (and regulators) don't like their wishes ignored.

As advised, do your best and let the chips fall.
 

AgnieszkaSz

Involved In Discussions
#8
If processes are not followed and top management does not seem to care, there is nothing underlings can do, other than blow the whistle to an external auditor, if such opportunity shows up.
I have done exactly this, external auditor issued a NC, as he put it, "for the good of the company", and I was fired for all my efforts. So I have mixed feelings about that.
Of course I still agree with this auditor that the NC was issued for the good of the company. I have never seen anyone learn from success.
 

Tagin

Trusted Information Resource
#10
So I am writing to seek insight or others' experiences when someone in the company (higher up than yourself) just plain refuses to follow their process. It affects others quite significantly. I've asked this person to review some documents that they own, no response. Seems that they just plain refuse to play the ISO game. Now, I am not very high in the company, and my role is basically to keep the BMS updated just enough that we pass our audits. At least that is what it feels like.

What can I do? Someone told me to issue an 8D, but I do not have high hopes that person will even show for the meetings.
If you had a defective tool on the production floor causing problems repeatedly, you wouldn't just figure out how to fix the tool or throw it out. Instead, you would look for the root cause which allowed the defective tool to remain on the floor indefinitely.

You have a 'people nonconformance'. But, of course, it is frowned up for the root cause to be a person. Instead, we dig a bit deeper and ask "What is it about the system that allows this person to continue to behave this way?"

In this way, you are framing the nonconformance as a problem with the system. This person's behavior is then merely symptomatic of the underlying defect(s) in the system.

It's not that we want to let this person off the hook; but rather, we want to fix the system, which will then have repercussions for that person.
 
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