Interesting Discussion Where Does Marketing/ Advertisement of Products fit in to ISO 9001?

BeaBea

Involved In Discussions
#21
I have trouble viewing marketing (market surveying) and advertising (raising interest) as processes. Easy to make the case that they are...but is it worth the time to do so? I think not.

I would (did) simply mention in the Sales process that the process may or may not include supplementary actions such as marketing, advertising, trade shows or similar...and that all of these are part of the sales process prior to quoting. 10,000 feet level, not details...literally a single sentence in the document...this gives marketing, advertising and sales all the freedom they want (and they want a lot).

As for false claims and overpromises...that should be managing people with people, not managing with documents.
If you want a measurable for this, it will be a subset in the complaint log.
Ninja, I agree completely with what you're saying! Thank you for your input!!
 
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BeaBea

Involved In Discussions
#22
Even if ISO doesn´t exactly address marketing, nor prohibits to include it.
In fact is a good idea to include it.
It can be included before the sales process or maybe in parallel, also it can be tasked with interesting kpis, e.g. # of attended shows, #number of potential customers captured, monthly advertising, etc.
Sure, it can be a process , I added this process in one organization.
It can help in benchmarking the company.
It is convenient to have it into the system, this way is audited under ISO and people in that process will feel the compromise
to carry out their activities.
My two cents.
I agree to include them. Our company is all about recognition and making every person feel appreciated and worthy this also gives direction of responsibilities and gives goals and forecasts... I do have them included as being associated with customer follow up, surveys, and analytics!
I just didn't know how to add the advertising aspect (we do a lot of charity work to show community services and get our name out and recognition to obtain more personable business relationships)
I see what your saying, I appreciate the input!
 

BeaBea

Involved In Discussions
#23
Marketing determines (upcoming) customer needs for design of services and products. Advertising explains to prospective customers how the organization's services and products could fulfill their needs - better than the competition perhaps. Marketing may also own the process for obtaining and analyzing customer feedback.

And yet, many "ISO systems" omit these processes.

Imposing procedures on our colleagues with the hope that they will properly (ISO-wise) establish these processes is not the way I recommend we develop our organizations to fulfill the requirements of ISO 9001.

Instead determine what processes already exist. Work with the process owner asking auditor-style questions (that is to show a genuine and forensic interest in the answers) to determine the objectives of their process, who is involved, what and from whom are the inputs, who does what to add value to these inputs and what is the output and to whom does it go. Capture the results of this interview in a deployment (swimlane) flowchart so all involved in the process can see who does what so the process fulfills its objectives. In doing this we discover and link to software, forms and notes that act as data collection devices, instructions or memory joggers. This key is to reflect the process as it actually works.

Much better than creating works of fiction.

Once we have the procedures accurately documented to the extent necessary for the effective planning, resourcing and control of the process we can compare each flowcharted procedure with ISO 9001 and check off the clauses which are relevant to these three important processes.
Got it! Thank you for that.. That helped regroup my thought process on how to organize my priorities.
I am a lone ranger at the company taking on the entire QA department alone, so its helpful to get some feedback from people in the same profession.
I'm actually creating an entirely new QMS for this company, the only thing we have documented are procedures and work instructions. so I'm working a little backwards. and my first step was to draw out the entire company business flow so i can see the big picture and figure out what processes i need to create to align with the ISO requirements. I have the QA aspect of things, Internal audits, training, record keeping.. but now I'm trying to figure out what major bucket process to capture for the quality of the product and services. SO when I came up with all my buckets I realized our Marketing team didn't really play a part in the "business flow" besides the 'pre-sales' of advertising to the government of our certifications as a small business..
As i went through these threads of discussions i noted that i can fit them at the back end to include them with customer feed back and surveys and analytics of satisfaction... however at the front end is where i got sort of confused because they come BEFORE the inputs of my overall business flow diagram.
I'll take what you said and as i start chipping away at the little details I'm sure it will all piece together..
 

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#24
I have trouble viewing marketing (market surveying) and advertising (raising interest) as processes. Easy to make the case that they are...but is it worth the time to do so? I think not.

I would (did) simply mention in the Sales process that the process may or may not include supplementary actions such as marketing, advertising, trade shows or similar...and that all of these are part of the sales process prior to quoting. 10,000 feet level, not details...literally a single sentence in the document...this gives marketing, advertising and sales all the freedom they want (and they want a lot).

As for false claims and overpromises...that should be managing people with people, not managing with documents.
If you want a measurable for this, it will be a subset in the complaint log.
I agree with John, Tagin and Ninja.
Whatever it fits into the system, as a process or activities inserted in sales,
but this task (Marketing) has many outputs which are very useful and needed for any business.
and for sure, the results of outputs are important to take into account, like any other process
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#25
BeaBea,

May I suggest you get out of weeds? Forgive if I’m wrong but you should not be thinking that you are in your own.

Instead you are helping top management to study how their organization already works as a system to get work, do work and get paid. At 30,000ft that is the core process that allows your company to exist. Top management will help you to determine the key processes in their core process for obtaining new clients and fulfilling their needs (fulfilling the mission perhaps). And then making sure they promptly pay for it!

You can then ask them to name the person who knows how each of the (key) processes works. These are your processes owners with whom you can work in capturing accurately who does what to fulfill the objectives of each process. Other key processes already exist for supporting and improving the core process. Name the owners of these processes too.

Let everyone understand they already work together as a system for finding and satisfying clients.

Sure, you’ll find a few nonconformities along the way where you need to work with the process owner to design a new process or new control for an existing process.

I am pretty sure you are not alone.

...besides that you have all of us at the Cove to help you succeed.

John
 

BeaBea

Involved In Discussions
#26
BeaBea,

May I suggest you get out of weeds? Forgive if I’m wrong but you should not be thinking that you are in your own.

Instead you are helping top management to study how their organization already works as a system to get work, do work and get paid. At 30,000ft that is the core process that allows your company to exist. Top management will help you to determine the key processes in their core process for obtaining new clients and fulfilling their needs. And then making sure they promptly pay for it!

You can then involve them in determining the processes within the core process. Then ask them to name the person who knows how each of the (key) processes works. These are your processes owners with whom you can work in capturing accurately who does what to fulfill the objectives of each process.

Let everyone understand they already work together as a system for finding and satisfying clients.

Sure, you’ll find a few nonconformities along the way where you need to work with the process owner to design a new process or new control for an existing process.

I am pretty sure you are not alone.

...besides that you have all of us at the Cove to help you succeed.

John
Thank you John! :) you make me feel so welcome!!
I just meant I feel alone in the sense that everyone is still learning the difference between a process and a procedure so its difficult to converse the complexity of process mapping with my coworkers here, as they don't understand the QA world let alone ISO requirements, but I'm teaching everyone slowly and they're catching on in time..
Sounds like the cove is where my peeps are :)

Thank you again for all your help and explanations, I'm so glad I found this forum, everyone has been very helpful!
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted Information Resource
#27
Likely what you meant, but just to nudge further in the direction...
Your peeps are in the office with you...Feeling alone, acting alone, makes you be alone. You're a central part of a team...and all of your teammates are employees at your company.
We're happy to be a resource and sounding board, and even friends...but don't consider us your ISO launch team...your team is in-house, else you'll fail...
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#28
I find that when I explain a process is work and a procedure is the way that work is the done most folk get it.

But, agreed, not so much from reading the standard!
 

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#29
Thank you John! :) you make me feel so welcome!!
I just meant I feel alone in the sense that everyone is still learning the difference between a process and a procedure so its difficult to converse the complexity of process mapping with my coworkers here, as they don't understand the QA world let alone ISO requirements, but I'm teaching everyone slowly and they're catching on in time..
Sounds like the cove is where my peeps are :)

Thank you again for all your help and explanations, I'm so glad I found this forum, everyone has been very helpful!
BeaBea

Have you done a SIPOC excercise for your departments (processes)? , once is done, you will have a clear
understanding of what your people produce and can determine if is a process or just activities into other processes.
 

Pjservan

Involved In Discussions
#30
I agree that marketing is not typically an area that is audited on its own, however it can definitely come to the spotlight during an audit. The company is responsible to ensure that they can meet the claims for its products and services (8.2.2). I have been involved in audits where new products were not through the whole design process and were being marketed as being commercially available. Furthermore marketing might be involved in the release of Product Data sheets onto a company's website. Lastly, after you become certified how you promote that you are ISO certified is reviewed as there are rules that you need to follow.
 
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