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Which documents to control apart from QMS related procedures?

J

JaneB

#11
Everything is done on SAP Business One and the templates for all those documents are all held on this system and I am the only person who has access to change the document templates and assign them to the system. Ie. the users have no option but to use the template which I have assigned, it is impossible to use a previous version in error.
OK - that's a document control system you've described. YOU control these documents by being the only person with access to change/modify. Great system - I like electronic methods of control because they're highly efficient.

I would ideally like to exclude most of these documents
.
Why? What's the point? (You're already controlling them!!)
 
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K

kgott

#12
Re: Which documents to control

Welcome to the Cove, RunnyBabbit,

Templates and Forms are documents.
I cant beleive it, but I've got someone who has a Doctoroate and a PHD arguing empahaticly that forms and templates are not the same thing for the purposes of creating links in a spreadhseet to the underlying document.

Keep it simple I cry. :nope:
 
R

RunnyBabbit

#13
Re: Which documents to control

In reply to all:

Many thanks for all the responses, it is very much appreciated.

Just got through the audit yesterday with no non-conformities so I am a happy bunny.

I went with just refering to our use of the SAP system in the Control of Documents/ Records procedure which seemed to satisfy the auditor. So the only documents I listed in the controlled documents schedule were ones which are not handled by SAP and so need to be controlled manually with an issue number etc..

I hope to have a much better understanding of ISO by the time of the surveillance audit next Feb so I will probably be back here!

Thanks again
 
R

RunnyBabbit

#14
Hi Jane,

Yes it's dawning on me as I am getting more of an understanding of what ISO is about that I am as you say already controlling them in another system. I think what I was getting at is that I want to avoid the time/effort of having to put footers on all the SAP documents and record reasons for any changes I make etc. as my time as General manager is highly stretched already..

I've also realised that in fact SAP is very well designed as even as a 'superuser' with maximum permissions I still cannot print a blank document from SAP, when I am in edit mode for a template 'print' is disabled. I can only save the changes and then print an actual filled in document - ie. a record not a document... does that make sense?

In addition SAP prevents any changes being made to certain documents such as delivery notes and invoices. These have to be corrected by means of another record being posted on the system. Other items such as quotes and sales orders can be changed and revised... but I've discovered that SAP records all the changes and when/who made them.
 
J

JaneB

#15
RunnyBabbit
I now understand more - I'm not sure where you're getting your info on doc control from, but you appear to be laboring undr a few misapprehensions. You don't NEED a document control schedule/log/what have you for example! (I haven't ever even created one for any of my clients.)

The clause is quite general, it talks of the controls 'needed'. Interesting choice of word - I read it as meaning the controls that you decide you need in your organisation and your environment in order to control your documents suitably.

All you need to do - ALL - is to meet the requirements of clause 4.2.3. That's it, game, set and match. I suggest that you read what's there closely and then start thinking about what you already do, before making any major changes.

You probably need some kind of ID on SAP docs, although even that is arguable to some extent. (If there's only ever one current version... then that's the current version.) Just because many people mistakenly believe there 'must' be a doc control sheet/log/whatever doesn't mean they're correct. And they're certainly operating or thinking in a pre-computerised environment and have almost certainly never used or come across SAP or something similar.


As GM, why not delegate the actual doing of it (updates) to someone else, and maintain the authorising of it yourself?

As you say, SAP records all the changes and when/who made them. So... combined with who sets/gives the permissions, there's your control. And you can use some internal audit to satisfy yourself it's working OK.
 
V

vanputten

#16
This is why I suggested that Runny Babbitt was already controlling the documents, why I suggested some thought on what the "control of documents" means, and why I referred back to the text of 4.2.3 in 9001. Move away from preconceptions and compliance thoughts and look for the value in what is actually required. I suggest maybe not waiting to the next external audit and moving beyond a simple compliance approach.
 
S

shallowmike

#18
Hi guys/gals,

This is my first posting in a while so greetings to one and all. I have just been launched back into the world of internal auditing for my new company, so getting back up to speed. I have an issue that during a recent audit I found several unsigned advice notes for receipt of raw material. These have been passed back to our purchasing manager conveniently in his absence. I take this as an uncontrolled part of the process...albeit our purchasing process doesn't stipulates the handling responsibilities of this document.

My question is , is it a non-conformance ( I think minor ) and would it be against purchasing or document control.

Thanks in advance,

Mike
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#19
Hi guys/gals,

This is my first posting in a while so greetings to one and all. I have just been launched back into the world of internal auditing for my new company, so getting back up to speed. I have an issue that during a recent audit I found several unsigned advice notes for receipt of raw material. These have been passed back to our purchasing manager conveniently in his absence. I take this as an uncontrolled part of the process...albeit our purchasing process doesn't stipulates the handling responsibilities of this document.

My question is , is it a non-conformance ( I think minor ) and would it be against purchasing or document control.

Thanks in advance,

Mike
Why do the advice notes need to be signed? And where are they supposed to go? Does it really matter? Answer those questions and you'll be further along.
 

SpinDr99

Involved In Discussions
#20
Re: Which documents to control

I have a question for you Pancho. Do you believe forms need to be approved? I know the standard requires approval of controlled documents, but in some (mostly larger) organizations, reviewing and approving of a form is looked upon as unnecessary. I made an exception in our Document Control SOP for approval of forms.
 
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