Which is the best OHSMS model according your analysis*and your experience ?

Randy

Super Moderator
#11
I do not find any noticeable difference between OHSAS 18001 and ILO OSH 2001. The typical hierarchy of controls as referred by Somashekar is also prescribed in the ILO guidelines:
There's a great deal of difference....Where as organizations that choose to use 18001 must ( as referenced by shall) meet all of its requirements, organizations choosing ILO 2001 have a choice as to which ones they choose to meet or not (as referenced by should). An organization using ILO 2001 could pick and choose what to conform to where an organization using 18001 must conform to the entire document without optional choices.

As defined in the English language "should" is an optional choice, and "shall" is an absolute or non-optional choice

Big difference!

Our friend "chooses" not to acccept nor recognize the difference in real value between the 2 documents ILO 2001 & OHSAS 18001. As a person who operates in the 3rd party world, I cannot audit for verification of conformance should's, but I can verify shall's have or have not been met.
 
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S

samsung

#12
There's a great deal of difference....Where as organizations that choose to use 18001 must ( as referenced by shall) meet all of its requirements, organizations choosing ILO 2001 have a choice as to which ones they choose to meet or not (as referenced by should). An organization using ILO 2001 could pick and choose what to conform to where an organization using 18001 must conform to the entire document without optional choices.

As defined in the English language "should" is an optional choice, and "shall" is an absolute or non-optional choice

Big difference!

Our friend "chooses" not to acccept nor recognize the difference in real value between the 2 documents ILO 2001 & OHSAS 18001. As a person who operates in the 3rd party world, I cannot audit for verification of conformance should's, but I can verify shall's have or have not been met.
Agree, that why ILO OSH is a guideline and OHSAS now is a standard.
 
K

kgott

#14
Kgott, but you, what is your own answer regarding your analysis and experience* ?
Henria; To make a long story short:

People who do the work supervise the work and manage the work need to get together and:
· identity the risks in the work
· develop suitable controls for each risk which includes identifying what if any, legislation, code of practice standard etc, applies to the work
· develop a safe way of doing the work and document it.
· make this known to everyone who does the work, supervises the work and manages the work.

then audit the work in progress for compliance to the agreed way

The manager does not have to know all the ins and out of the risks associated with the work and how the work is done but they do need to have a reasonably good idea of it which they nearly always do because they usually have experience in those roles anyway before they become the manager.

So the first thing you need to do is develop a list of all the risks in the work your organisation does. Google for types of hazards and risks

The second thing you need to do is to develop a matrix type tool for assessing risk.

The third thing you need to do is learn the problems associated with Behaviour Based Safety. This concept is absolute rubbish ( you will learn this if you study Deming’s work)

BTW; it best to think of the hierarchy of controls as the Preferred Order of Controls. The word hierarchy stinks of rigidity and inflexibility. Experience will teach you that things can’t always be done as the hierarchy suggests

hope this helps
 

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#15
Hello all !

Thanks both, I am happy to see this tread is interesting for you. Some remarks or answers :

Randy, it's only a kind of requirements you "should" obey strictly... the legal requirements because their application is mandatory ...

In other cases requirements are voluntary applied, as ISO 9001 or ILO-OSH (the company opted to use it or not). Their requirements may be written "shall" or "should", it does not matter : a company which choses to apply ILO-OSH requirements would be completly stupid to consider thereafter the formulation "should" to avoid to satisfy its requirements ! To think so is mocking the intelligence of these companies (certified or not).

But otherwise if legal requirements would be written with some "should" requirements then compagnies would be free to satisfy or not these "should" requirements unlike normal mandatory legal requirements...

And I recall to you that OSHMS international guidelines or standards but models (Samsung) are essentialy OSH improvement tools for compagny (without any certification requirement, neither "shall" nor "should").

Kgott, I agree with your last message (I was specialy happy to read the memo on the absurdity of the "behavior-based safety", its perfect !), it's realy a pleasure to discuss prevention with an OSH officer, even you don't answer my questions regarding the different OSHMS models (nor my subsidiary question on your 20 years professional experience, personnaly I am OSH officer since 1978).

Regarding your "BTW*" I am obviouslt ok too : my english is not subtle (it's a difficulty for me to discuss correctly with you guys) but "order" (as in ILO-OSH for example, to please Randy) is a better word (the deal is to avoid to think first and directly to PPE for example !).
* please, what means "BTW" ?

Bye.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#16
Regarding your "BTW*" I am obviouslt ok too : my english is not subtle (it's a difficulty for me to discuss correctly with you guys) but "order" (as in ILO-OSH for example, to please Randy) is a better word (the deal is to avoid to think first and directly to PPE for example !).
* please, what means "BTW" ?
"By the way"
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#18
Stand in front of a Judge for either a civil or criminal trial as a defendent and you'll learn real fast the difference between "should" and "shall"
 
#19
Hello !

Randy, you're wrong but giving a very good example that I am right !

With a judge "you shall" is actually not the same as "you should"... Why ? Because with a judge we are in the "legal standards" domain, their "you shall" requirements are mandatory !

But it's not the case in the "technical standards" domain (ILO, ANSI, AFNOR, ISO ...) which are voluntary. Their "you shall" requirements have the same value than "you should" requirements" because these are requirements that I choose to apply without legal risk if I don't apply.

Then I'll return your response : Stand in front of a voluntary OSHMS standard as OSH officer to improve OSH performance of your compagny and you will quickly learn that there are no difference between "should" or "shall" requirement in a technical standards.

Bye.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#20
Hello !

Randy, you're wrong but giving a very good example that I am right !

With a judge "you shall" is actually not the same as "you should"... Why ? Because with a judge we are in the "legal standards" domain, their "you shall" requirements are mandatory !

But it's not the case in the "technical standards" domain (ILO, ANSI, AFNOR, ISO ...) which are voluntary. Their "you shall" requirements have the same value than "you should" requirements" because these are requirements that I choose to apply without legal risk if I don't apply.

Then I'll return your response : Stand in front of a voluntary OSHMS standard as OSH officer to improve OSH performance of your compagny and you will quickly learn that there are no difference between "should" or "shall" requirement in a technical standards.

Bye.
In English:

Should = Optional, you have choices.

Shall = Mandatory, no choices.

Hope this helps. :D

Stijloor.
 
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