Which ISO 9001 Clause applies to "Procedures are outdated"?

#1
Hello Readers,
I am doing my first internal audit in this company, During the audit , I found out that the supplier evaluation procedure is not up to date. We are not currently perform some of the activity which are written on procedure.
So I am writing the NCR for this finding and can't figure it out which ISO clause should i mention in the Non-conformance. Should it be 7.5.2 (c)?

Thank you for your help !

Regards
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Hello Readers,
I am doing my first internal audit in this company, During the audit , I found out that the supplier evaluation procedure is not up to date. We are not currently perform some of the activity which are written on procedure.
So I am writing the NCR for this finding and can't figure it out which ISO clause should i mention in the Non-conformance. Should it be 7.5.2 (c)?

Thank you for your help !

Regards
When you say "outdated' do you it does not meet the requiements of the standard or the individuals are not following it.
 

Kronos147

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Write the non-conformance against the your procedure.


Example:
SOP 8.4 says in clause 4.5 "supplier evaluation records are updated on a quarterly basis."


Nonconformance:
The supplier evaluation records have not been updated since 1847 in contradiction to SOP 8.4 clause 4.5.


Objective evidence:
Supper eval records.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Write the non-conformance against the your procedure.


Example:
SOP 8.4 says in clause 4.5 "supplier evaluation records are updated on a quarterly basis."


Nonconformance:
The supplier evaluation records have not been updated since 1847 in contradiction to SOP 8.4 clause 4.5.


Objective evidence:
Supper eval records.
By your example it looks like your procedure are in place but they are not following it.

I would write the NCR to the procedure they are not following and to the section of the standard that it is written.

Note supplier evaluation records have not been updated since 1847???
 

somashekar

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Hi Shrikant, Welcome to the cove with your first post.
You do not need to worry about the ISO clause during the internal audit. You can refer to your procedures and practice to mention about the NC
Offcourse, if a standard's requirement is not met, you can quote the standard's clause.
 

michajel86

Involved In Discussions
#6
Hi, My opinion , in case the problem is really in procedure, then : 4.4.2 , 7.5.3.2

Otherwise, You should refer exactly to mentioned procedure .
EOD, it is on process owner to decide what should be changed: procedure(Limited by standards) or approach.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#7
For an internal audit, I would be less concerned with identifying the clause and more concerned about resolving the issue - that will add more value to your organization's management system than making sure you have the right clause number beside your finding.

The finding is issued to the process owner and let him/her determine why records have not been updated. As the auditor, it is not necessarily your place to determine if it's because those involved have not followed the document OR if they have a better process which has not resulted in an updated document OR some other reason that we don't know about.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
It has been almost 20 years that ISO 9001 is supposed to be implemented via a "process-based" approach.

We all (should) know that a (documented) procedure serves the purpose of determining the criteria and methods needed to ensure the effective operation and control of such processes.

With that in mind, any time the actual process deviates from an existing procedure (or any other command media), which is supposed to provide process definition, the situation represents a failure to comply with ISO 9001:2015 4.4.1 and more specifically, 4.4.1.c).
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
It has been almost 20 years that ISO 9001 is supposed to be implemented via a "process-based" approach.

We all (should) know that a (documented) procedure serves the purpose of determining the criteria and methods needed to ensure the effective operation and control of such processes.

With that in mind, any time the actual process deviates from an existing procedure (or any other command media), which is supposed to provide process definition, the situation represents a failure to comply with ISO 9001:2015 4.4.1 and more specifically, 4.4.1.c).
Excellent point Sidney...

The other side of this point is that I have seen a deviation of processes and procedure which has improved the effectiveness of the process but was not properly documented.

just another perspective to enhance the discussion.... :))

"ISO 9001:2015
4.4.1 The organization shall establish, implement, maintain and continually improve a quality management system, including the processes needed and their interactions, in accordance with the requirements of this International Standard.

The organization shall determine the processes needed for the quality management system and their
application throughout the organization, and shall:


c) determine and apply the criteria and methods (including monitoring, measurements and related performance indicators) needed to ensure the effective operation and control of these processes;:
 

normzone

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
Thank you all - just two minutes ago I was asking myself this same question, and logged into this forum on a whim to find this thread at the top.

Somebody post the winning six lottery numbers for this weekends drawing please.
 
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