Which kind of document is the Quality Policy?

Randy

Super Moderator
#21
ok Randy
I got it, it is a document not record but which kind of ?
it is really not possible to involve it into any kind of document that i discribed above ? :truce:
You're worrying over nits........It's just a required document within your management system and you have to control it as such. It doesn't matter what it looks like, smells like feels like or tastes like....it's just a document.

The current policy states what you intend to do and an old, no longer valid policy states what you had intended to do. One is present and the other past.
 
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Q

qualitymanager

#22
Re: Which kind of document (is the Quality Policy?)

Quality Manager, I think you are confusing the issue unnecessarily with your comment about the policy being a record. Using the same logic, should we say that the internal audit procedure is evidence of meeting the requirement of clause 8.2.2? I don't think so myself.
:topic:

Within the context of subsequent posts, I will accept that my comment about the Quality Policy being a record is now confusing the issue.

Out of the context of what this thread has become, please explain why you disagree with the following:

Requirement: "A documented procedure shall be established to define" (ref ISO 9001 8.2.2)

Definition of a Record: document ... providing evidence of activities performed

Conclusion: A documented procedure is a record providing evidence that the requirements of ISO 9001 8.2.2 have been met (for "establish and document", not implement, ref. ISO 9001 4.1)

I differentiate the terms document and record to avoid the confusion. I think the fact that the requirement you quote in 4.2.3 points us to 4.2.4 is evidence enough don't you?
I submit that a record is a type of document (please see ISO 9000 and partitive relationships) and to say X is a record, not a document is not in line with the statement in 4.2.4.
 
Q

qualitymanager

#23
Re: which kind of document

I'm agree with you Colpart about what is a record. But as well as our documentation system require to define the kind of the document ( WI, procedure, Record, Forms, specifications...etc ) this is why i think to make it as record. i know that normally the record is kept in store or what ever when the Quality policy is alive document but which kind of document it is ?
specifications as one fellow suggested ??
Please list all the categories for documents within your QMS, then I will be able to say if it fits into an existing category, or if you should create a new one.
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#24
I am not sure why you are complicating the matter. An internal audit procedure is a document which informs the reader of the method of performing audits, this procedure needs to be kept current and therefore subject to document control.

Part of that procedure will be a requirement to keep certain records e.g. audit findings to demonstrate that the procedure was followed.
 

JoCam

Trusted Information Resource
#25
Records are anything that starts as a template and gets filled in with results or observations. Everything else is a document.

Manuals and Policies are classed as level 1 documents, as they consist of statements referring to compliance with specified standards, regulations and procedures.

All the Management systems I've set up consist of the following: -

Level 1 - Manuals and Policies
Level 2 - Process Flows
Level 3 - Work Instructions, Standard Operating Procedures
Level 4 - Records

I hope this helps,

Jo
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#26
Records are anything that starts as a template and gets filled in with results or observations. Everything else is a document.
Records are documents too. ISO 9001:2008 says, "Records are a special type of document..."

Manuals and Policies are classed as level 1 documents, as they consist of statements referring to compliance with specified standards, regulations and procedures.

All the Management systems I've set up consist of the following: -

Level 1 - Manuals and Policies
Level 2 - Process Flows
Level 3 - Work Instructions, Standard Operating Procedures
Level 4 - Records
There's been a lot of discussion here regarding the so-called "documentation pyramid" and its various iterations. Yours is the first I've seen that makes "Process Flows" separate from SOPs--the two are not mutually exclusive in practice, nor is there a good reason I can think of to make the distinction. Both work instructions and SOPs may be expressed in flow diagrams.
[/quote]
 
S

selena15

#27
Hi All of you
Sorry for the late, i've been pretty busy ...
Jane, one colleague told me that a specifications can resolve the issue but honestly i do not agree because it is sound in my ears as technical kind of content. but as you said, it can be "a solution"
in our documentation pramid, "manual" is defined as kind of document", not so far "a policy"! I can even make it inside this category. at least it is in the same level
aren't you agree ?
:thanx:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#28
Hi All of you
Sorry for the late, i've been pretty busy ...
Jane, one colleague told me that a specifications can resolve the issue but honestly i do not agree because it is sound in my ears as technical kind of content. but as you said, it can be "a solution"
in our documentation pramid, "manual" is defined as kind of document", not so far "a policy"! I can even make it inside this category. at least it is in the same level
aren't you agree ?
:thanx:
Yes. You are making this too difficult. The quality policy is just a statement or document. Put the quality policy into the quality manual and it becomes part of the quality manual document. ISO does not require a document pyramid anymore. Documents are documents, it does not matter what you call them. Good wishes on your developments.
 
J

JaneB

#30
Jane, one colleague told me that a specifications can resolve the issue but honestly i do not agree because it is sound in my ears as technical kind of content. but as you said, it can be "a solution"
in our documentation pramid, "manual" is defined as kind of document", not so far "a policy"! I can even make it inside this category. at least it is in the same level
aren't you agree ?
:thanx:
Selena,

  • There's no 'perfect' document structure
  • Re. both structure and types, people see these things in different ways, categorise them in different ways, and also inevitably believe that their model is 'obvious' and 'intuitive' and don't understand how others can't agree. People have very widely varying views. Just look at the range of responses in this thread, for example
  • Ultimately, the 'best' thing to do is the thing that works best for you - meaning in your situation, your system, your organisation.

That's based on a huge amount of experience in designing, working with, implementing or consulting on many different kinds of documentation & information systems, manual and electronic over many years.

Re. the current point, IMO, there's many more important and more valuable things to spend time & energy on. I'd just pick the most practical & common sense solution that works, and move on. ;)
 
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