Who audits the internal audit system?

C

Craig B

#1
Hi everyone,
Please forgive me if this question is "old", but I have searched and searched and can't find an answer.
We are certified to the ISO9001:2000 standard. During the past few years, I was part of the internal audit team although not auditing areas specific to my duties as Quality Manager. Our Management Rep., who did not participate in our regular process audits, did audit our Internal Audit program only and at the end of our audit cycle. Now he is no longer employed here and I am the new Management Rep. I still perform a few audits, again not directly related to my specific duties. My question...will I be able to audit our Internal Audit program since I do participate in internal audits? If not, what are my options, as we don't want an outside auditor for this missing piece.
Thanks for any advice.
Craig
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
How many other auditors do you have there, Craig? I'm responsible for maintaining the Business Management System (this includes the Internal Auditing portion) and am also the Management Rep. Thankfully, I have a other auditors who can audit those functions for which I am responsible.
 
C

Craig B

#3
We have 10 internal auditors, but since they all perform internal audits (including me) who can audit our internal audit program?
Thanks
 
#4
Craig B said:
We have 10 internal auditors, but since they all perform internal audits (including me) who can audit our internal audit program?
Thanks
This is one of those "deep" questions auditors like to ask themselves. The standard gives us a couple of clues:

1) ...selection of auditors and conduct of audits shall ensure objectivity and impartiality...
2) Auditors shall not audit their own work

So, in your situation, can you audit without bias? If you cannot audit your own work, can someone else audit your stuff?

Also, internal audits are monitored by external auditors.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#5
db said:
This is one of those "deep" questions auditors like to ask themselves. The standard gives us a couple of clues:

1) ...selection of auditors and conduct of audits shall ensure objectivity and impartiality...
2) Auditors shall not audit their own work

So, in your situation, can you audit without bias? If you cannot audit your own work, can someone else audit your stuff?

Also, internal audits are monitored by external auditors.
This is how I look at it...

Who developed the Internal Audit Programme? Me.

Who developed the Internal Audit documentation? Me.

Who develops the Internal Audit Schedule? Me.

Who controls the Internal Audit Pool? Me.

So, any one of my Internal Auditors can audit me...the one rule is that for their sample, they can not review of their previous audits.
 
C

Craig B

#6
Thanks for the input.
I do realize that external auditors audit our internal audits, but I know we need to do so internally as well. My take is that during the Internal Audit program review, I will review all audits outside my specific scope and have another internal auditor review any audits I have personally performed.
I hope this will fly.
Thanks again
 
#7
RCBeyette said:
This is how I look at it...

Who developed the Internal Audit Programme? Me.

Who developed the Internal Audit documentation? Me.

Who develops the Internal Audit Schedule? Me.

Who controls the Internal Audit Pool? Me.

So, any one of my Internal Auditors can audit me...the one rule is that for their sample, they can not review of their previous audits.
Who controls the internal auditors? You

Who will be able to audit you without bias? insert sound of crickets chirping

The same goes for top management. You can bet I'm willing to write a major nonconformance to the boss. :eek:
 
R

Rachel

#8
This is what I did (and maybe I have the luxury of an exorbitant amount of internal auditors, but...)

Each area was assigned an impartial auditor(s). Some auditors did multiple audits, some didn't - we did them in teams for our first go at the 9K:2K process audit.

One internal auditor (plant manager) was purposely left out of the group. He then audited the audits upon their completion. This made sense for us, because if anyone that has to read the audit report and carefully assess the process, it's him...he's the go-to guy for manufacturing.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
-R.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#9
db said:
Who controls the internal auditors? You

Who will be able to audit you without bias? insert sound of crickets chirping

The same goes for top management. You can bet I'm willing to write a major nonconformance to the boss. :eek:
There is always bias...but this limits it as much as possible. When I schedule my process to be audited, I select auditors with whom I don't necessarily have a "friendship" with and they aren't auditing their own work and they're deemed competent by the guidelines set out in our process...so they're able to audit me.
 
#10
I think Roxane's and Rachel's approach is good, and fairly common. The bottom line is you want to have effective audits. If we get too wrapped up on absolute objectivity, it will not happen. Even using an outside agency, will not ensure objective audits, after all they won't want to say anything that might get them fired either.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
lanley liao How to understand this words that the planning of internal audit shall take into consideration the results of previous audits? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
O ISO13485 implementation - Are internal audits expected before stage 1 audit? Design and Development of Products and Processes 3
S Internal audit discrepancy - We missed a few audits that were scheduled Internal Auditing 12
G Non Conformance During ISO 9001 Audit - Not All Internal Audits Completed General Auditing Discussions 19
E Informational Internal Audits - Wear multiple hats what can and can't I audit (so I'm not auditing my own work) Internal Auditing 149
F API Spec Q1 9th Edition Surveillance Audit - Questions about internal audits. Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 22
J Internal Audit clarification - How to perform the audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
K No Internal Audits For Upcoming IATF Trans Audit IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
J Internal Audits - Closing Audit Deficiency Reports (ISO 13485) Internal Auditing 4
S Is Audit Plan / Agenda required for Internal Audits? Internal Auditing 2
C ISO 9001:2008 Surveillance Audit - No Internal Audits Internal Auditing 9
dubrizo Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a checklist Internal Auditing 40
O New Job 1 Month from Recertification Audit - Missing Documents, no Internal Audits ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 25
N Internal Process Audits - 7.1 Planning - How do YOU audit it? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
F Changing the Frequency of Internal Audits - ISO/TS 16949 Internal Audit Requirements Internal Auditing 5
Q Reducing the Frequency of Audits - Internal Audit Programme 2012 Internal Auditing 13
K Internal Audits - Necessary before Stage 1 Audit? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 42
G Internal Audit Planning - We are not getting the best out of our Internal Audits ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
K ISO 13485 Audit Finding on Regulatory Issues - Internal Audits ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 8
S Internal Audits required before Registration Audit - Distributors ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
ScottK Using Customer Audits as part of the Internal Audit Plan for ISO9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
M Internal Audits - Audit Departments or Processes Internal Auditing 13
M Two situations where it is appropriate to add further Hazard Audits to Internal Audit Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 8
E Internal Audits - Presenting Audit Findings to Upper Management General Auditing Discussions 19
P No Time to Audit? Becoming "leaner" - How do you make time for Internal Audits? Internal Auditing 36
E First external audit coming up, do I need to have performed Internal Audits already? Internal Auditing 15
P How do you Audit Internal Audits? Internal Auditing 32
C New to performing internal audits - Looking for audit questions Internal Auditing 5
A Audit Database that captures internal, external audits - Prime Part 21 manufacturer Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 12
Casana How to document Internal Audits done via the "Process Audit" methodology Internal Auditing 9
S Internal Audits not performed - Useful data from internal audit schedule Internal Auditing 31
B Internal audits 3 year plan? Internal audit frequency Internal Auditing 23
Y Internal Audits of All Facilities World Wide Before the Certification Audit Internal Auditing 9
D Internal Audits and Nonconformances - Clause 8.2.2 Internal Audit (paragraph 4) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
W Internal Audit Schedule - Seeking Examples - Quality Audits Internal Auditing 14
Crusader Your Internal Audit Team: Internal or Hired External? Outsourcing Internal Audits Internal Auditing 100
L Internal Audit Schedule - Frequency of internal audits Internal Auditing 9
C Changing Internal Audit Program - Regional Manager Online Audits Internal Auditing 2
I Seeking: Internal Audit Training Material - Practice Audits? Internal Auditing 14
Gman2 ISO 9001:2000 Internal Audit: Someone PLEASE find me the "Shall" on "Process Audits" Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 37
Gman2 Internal Audits - Who Can Audit Whom? Internal Auditing 7
Gman2 ISO 9001 Internal Audit Checklists and Process Audits Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 31
A ISO 14001 Clause 4.5.4 - Internal Audit - Must a company perform internal audits? ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 5
A Management Review and Internal Audits Before Registration Audit Management Review Meetings and related Processes 2
Raffy The Role of the Process Audit in ISO 9000 Internal Audits Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 22
Raffy Internal Audit vs. Customer Audits - Can we count Customer Audits as IAs? Internal Auditing 25
J Self Audits - Internal Audits - Area supervisors to audit their own area Internal Auditing 22
C Internal Audit Schedule - Documentation requirements for Internal Audits Internal Auditing 10
A Internal Audits - Can we to perform audit just using process maps? Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 19
B Our QS9000 audit team has been using checklists to perform internal audits Internal Auditing 37

Similar threads

Top Bottom