Who is "Top Management" exactly in ISO 9001:2008?

[hogheavenfarm]

I thought the idea of MR was a direct line to Top management? You would have to create a chain of custody otherwise, for documentation that the required issues are actually being discussed, and what the action plans were. And in that case, the MR would not have access to, (and theoretically not have the authority) to carry out the MR responsibilities, as they could be limited by a superior in between?
I have a CEO who also does not want to be bothered, but I do have direct access to him, even though there have been attempts to have me report to the production manager instead.
I thought I understood this part, now I think Im just more confused????

 

[AndyN]

I don't agree. The reporting in ISO 9001 5.5.2 b) is not related to a "line of reporting" between a subordinate and his/her direct line manager. The reporting there refers to providing top management with performance results of the QMS.

I agree with Sidney. It's not about lines of reporting, it's simply reporting on the QMS. Of course, not everyone can do that effectively, in a manner that 'Top Management' understand, however it doesn't mean (IMHO) that the MR has to be a manager or have a line on an org. chart to a top manager.

 

[Crusader]

I stand corrected. Well then, never mind!

I shall not bring this up ever again.

 

[Big Jim]

I thought the idea of MR was a direct line to Top management? You would have to create a chain of custody otherwise, for documentation that the required issues are actually being discussed, and what the action plans were. And in that case, the MR would not have access to, (and theoretically not have the authority) to carry out the MR responsibilities, as they could be limited by a superior in between?
I have a CEO who also does not want to be bothered, but I do have direct access to him, even though there have been attempts to have me report to the production manager instead.
I thought I understood this part, now I think Im just more confused????

Read element 5.5.2 again. What you are assuming just isn't there. Sidney presented it properly.

 

[Crusader]

Read element 5.5.2 again. What you are assuming just isn't there. Sidney presented it properly.

It's what I have been told by my registrar.....not what I read. Maybe the registrar needs to read it again.

 

[Wes Bucey]

It's what I have been told by my registrar.....not what I read. Maybe the registrar needs to read it again.

This "mission creep" is a problem throughout the quality world, not just one particular auditor.

I believe what happens is a person is a little unsure of the exact interpretation, so goes overboard in adding stricter parameters to assure he/she is not deficient.

This is also common with machinists, who through a combination of pride and ignorance, self-impose tighter tolerances on the products they make than the designer specified, not mindful of the added cost (waste) to achieve those tighter tolerances (more frequent tool changes, added manufacturing steps, such as polishing to achieve a smoother surface finish than specified, etc.)

 

[Big Jim]

It's what I have been told by my registrar.....not what I read. Maybe the registrar needs to read it again.

Registrars are not always right either.

Reading 5.5.2 b it is clear that it speaks to the management representative's responsibility to report on the performance of the quality management system, and does not speak to the overall line of authority or organizational structure.

"reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement"

It should also be noted that there is nothing said that the management representative needs to be the quality manager (although it often is so assigned).

There is a traditional feeling, especially in aerospace, that the management representative and the quality manager need to be one in the same and that he needs to report directly to top management on the companies organization chart. It just isn't so.

Even if you add in the AS9100 enhancement of 5.5.2 d it is a stretch to come up with that.

AS9100B 5.5.2 d "the organizational freedom to resolve matters pertaining to quality"

AS9100C 5.5.2 d "the organizational freedom and unrestricted access to top management to resolve quality management issues"

I believe, as Wes stated, that it is the attempt to make sure that they don't do an inadequate job they add a bit more than is really required and it continues to creep from there.

 

[silentrunning]

I have always considered Top Management to be anyone who signs my paycheck.

 

[hogheavenfarm]

AS9100C 5.5.2 d "the organizational freedom and unrestricted access to top management to resolve quality management issues"

and could I not argue that if I reported to another manager, I do not have unrestricted access to top management? For instance, they once wanted me to be under the production manager, I would report to him, he would report to top management (hopefully). Doesnt that restrict my access?

 

[AndyN]

AS9100C 5.5.2 d "the organizational freedom and unrestricted access to top management to resolve quality management issues"

and could I not argue that if I reported to another manager, I do not have unrestricted access to top management? For instance, they once wanted me to be under the production manager, I would report to him, he would report to top management (hopefully). Doesn't that restrict my access?

What's missing here in all this debate is the *management style* or *management culture* of the company. In past lives, I was responsible/reported to either the Quality Director or the Manufacturing Director, depending on the job I held. I did, however, also have the ability to go and speak, directly, to the Managing Director (President) of the company.

I believe, in some cases, people confuse 'reporting lines' with the ability to influence management and 'get things done'. We've all met people who are in the 'right place', according to the lines on the org. chart, but don't have the ability to influence management. Let's face it, that's really what the MR's job is - influencing Management.