Why do gauge R & R? New gauges being ordered by the engineering department

#1
There is currently an argument within the company concerning gauge R & R studies. We are in the process of applying for accreditation for TS16949, already having BS EN ISO 9001:2000, thus we are or will, be running two Quality managemnt systems. Now, gauge R & R is not a requirement of BS but is with TS. The problem lies with new gauges being ordered by the engineering dept. They insist on an R & R for ALL gauges. However, I have suggested that R & R need only be done on those gauges that are to be used to measure those characteristics that the customer (Automotive) has deemed critical or significant. I do not think that there is any need to carry out gauge studies on gauges that are solely to be used on non automotive customers. I would welcome anyones views
 
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#2
You are correct in on one issue and partially correct on another.
True, you do not have to do a gage R&R on non-automotive product to be registered to TS2. Although not implicit in the ISO9K2K, a knowledgable auditor could direct you to 8.1a of the standard.

Yes, you do have to do a gage R&R on your automotive customer requirements. BUT, you also have to do a gage R&R on those characteristics designated critical or significant by your engineering department for your automotive customers.

Also would you please clarify Non-Automotive parts/customers. I see this term used quite frequently, however, I have trouble visualizing what kind of parts/processes would fit this description. Also it would seem to be a documentation nightmare.
 

bpritts

Involved - Posts
#3
David - you pose two different issues.

TS is very clear with regard to the automotive customer applications. You must do measurement system analysis (MSA) on ALL "types" (families?) of measurement systems referenced in the control plan. If your control plan only considers significant characteristics, then you're OK on that. The usual form of an MSA is a gage R & R but there are exceptions- e.g. for destructive testing.
This requirement is not any different from the old QS9000 requirement. (TS 7.6.1).

With regard to your non-auto customers. ISO 9001:2000 requires 7.6, paragraph 2 that ",measurement ... are carried out in a manner that is consistent with the monitoring and measurement requirements".

I would argue that some form of measurement system analysis is required to demonstrate that the method of measurement is consistent with the requirements. Gage R & R studies are one method of doing this. Some evaluation of measurement capability is called for in ISO 9001 - it's just much more flexible how you determine that the method is appropriate. You might just say that this depends on the professional judgement of the QA person designing the system. Or you could rely on a rule of thumb. In the "old days", many people used the old 10% rule-- that
the measurement device have at least 10% of the precision of the tolerances
to be measured.

I used to think that R & R was unnecessary paperwork, but have since been amazed how often people are inspecting product using a method that doesn't
pass an R & R. Why not save the trouble and just flip a coin? ;)

So, if you're in a situation where you have some good reason to be confident that your measurement system is effective, then this won't be a big deal. However, if variation in your measurement process is a big part of your overall product variation, then you need to study it and make sure that you know what's going on.

Regards,
Brad

PS-- in a recent article, I understand that the IATF has written new rules
regarding "non-automotive" products in a TS system. I don't recall the
details, but you might want to check this out. Apparently the rules
were changed in mid 2004.

b.
 
#4
Thanks to both for your replies. We are ball bearing telescopic runners/slides manufacturer. At the moment we manufacture mainly for the furniture industry ,non automotive customers. We have now got a foot in the door with a couple of automotive customers, hence our going for TS accredition. As I said, we are currently manufacturing to two different quality systems, TS and ISO. We don't do any process studies for the non automotive customers, yeah sad I know, but there has never been any need for it. We just bang out the product and do a first off, mid batch and last off. If the product is in tolerance, all well and good. Worked very well for the furniture industry. Anyway, your comments are food for thought. Thank you once again for your comments.
 
S

SteelWoman

#5
Hey, on the subject of GageR&R, can someone settle a point of confusion for me? We are hearing some talk from someone in a nearby plant that TS REQUIRES everyone to do bias/linearity studies in ADDITION to gage R&Rs? Am I missing this "requirement" somewhere?
 
D

D.Scott

#6
7.6.1 deals with Measurement System Analysis. The reference to address Bias and Linearity as well as Stability is found in the MSA manual 3rd addition. This is not really in addition to Gage R&R, it is a part of the overall Measurement System Analysis.

Dave
 
S

SteelWoman

#7
But there's no requirement in TS that the entire MSA manual be utilized as a "supplemental text" of the TS standard, right? Doesn't the MSA manual itself present itself as a "guide"?
 
D

D.Scott

#8
TS 7.6.1 states you must do MSA. "The analytical methods and acceptance criteria used shall conform to those in customer reference manuals on MSA." The MSA 3rd edition is the customer specific reference manual for Ford, GM, and Chrysler. TS goes on to say when there are no customer requirements, refer to ISO 10012-1 and ISO 10012-2. I don't have those documents but I will bet they say pretty much the same as the MSA book.

Dave
 
S

SteelWoman

#9
I understand what you're saying, I'm just not sure I can make the leap from "you must do MSA" to "you must do everything the MSA manual states," especially when the MSA manual itself says it is simply "an introduction to measurement system analysis." I'm not sure the MSA manual is intended as a list of required MSA studies you must perform on your system.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#10
Here's a shall

SteelWoman said:
I understand what you're saying, I'm just not sure I can make the leap from "you must do MSA" to "you must do everything the MSA manual states," especially when the MSA manual itself says it is simply "an introduction to measurement system analysis." I'm not sure the MSA manual is intended as a list of required MSA studies you must perform on your system.

I also tried that line of reasoning and failed. Our registrar pointed out this hateful shall clause:

7.6.1 Measurement system analysis

Statistical studies shall be conducted to analyse the variation present in the results of each type of measuring and test equipment system. This requirement shall apply to measurement systems referenced in the control plan. The analytical methods and acceptance criteria used shall conform to those in customer reference manuals on measurement systems analysis. Other analytical methods and acceptance criteria may be used if approved by the customer.
 
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