Why does production see quality negatively?

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#11
Re: Why does manufacturing see quality negatively?

I don't exactly agree with you. I'm hoping that quality is associated with much, much more than "just" production/manufacturing. Actuall y what started me off was that a "newcomer" referred to "production" and not "manufacturing". I don't really associate the word "manufacturing" with many departments in a company. Purchasing, design, planning etc. play a large roll in quality, but I've never thought of them as being part of manufacturing.
Am I wrong?
It's helpful if you quote at least part of the post you're responding to so that when you say "I don't exactly agree with you" we know what you're referring to without backtracking through the thread.

Sales sells things
Design designs things
Manufacturing/production (whatever) makes things.
Quality does things too, but what?

When there's conflict, it's inevitably because the various functions have different priorities. Sales people make promises that can't be kept, but so long as they keep selling things, they're considered successful. Designers design things without regard for whether or not the things designed can actually be produced; sometimes this is due to the prevarications of a sales person. Manufacturing is faced with trying to make things that can't be made, with schedules that require defying the laws of physics.

Too often the quality department is charged with making sense of it all and trying to protect the best interests of both the customer and "the organization." I might add manufacturing engineers to the mix; they have to design processes that will do the impossible and produce goods far beyond the capabilities of the technology they have to work with.

The key to whole thing was identified a long time ago when Deming wrote those four little words for management: Create constancy of purpose. When there's conflict that people can't control, it means that leadership has failed, and as Deming also said, managers are being paid to make things worse.

Until sales, design, engineering and production are working under the same set of inviolable rules, the quality department will be the enemy. I'll go so far as to say that the reason that quality departments even exist is due to failure of leadership and the worship of short-term performance. If it's all done as it should be done, the quality function as we know it today won't be necessary.
 
Last edited:
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#12
my :2cents:
The organization's culture.
The folks at the top of the ladder allow operations to exist without fully indoctrinating all functions into the "team" culture. If you allow sales to sell without looking at the availability of schedulable units, scheduling to schedule without taking into consideration the delivery requirements, production to produce without regard to quality or delivery (and perhaps even what has been sold...been there, done that) and the QC or QA function to act as police without trying to get along with anyone else, you have set yourself up for everyone to see quality negatively.

I've worked in both types of organizations. Where I am (and where we got to in previous job) there is a team mindset. We actually have no "quality guys" per se where I am. There are guys that work in the lab, but the production folks police their own work, and do a mighty fine job of it. They understand that if it isn'e good enough for the customer, it will hurt us in the long run. re-producing product means an order that cannot be made, costs in product that is useless, and all the other things that go along with it. But, I will say that when there is no design involved, it might be easier than the situations described with poor design.
 
G

Gordon Clarke

#13
Re: Why does manufacturing see quality negatively?

It's helpful if you quote at least part of the post you're responding to so that when you say "I don't exactly agree with you" we know what you're referring to without backtracking through the thread.

Sales sells things
Design designs things
Manufacturing/production (whatever) makes things.
Quality does things too, but what?
First thank for the "quote" tip - I'm still new in elsmar so it's learning process.
Secondly, who can disagree with the first three on your "list"?
I'm now left trying to figure out if number four is a rhetorical question or not :)
I hope you're not in quality and don't know what you do!

My problem with your answer (and other answers received) is that there isn't really a suggestion as to how this problem could be solved. It''s a major "fault/flaw" but what's the corrective action?

Over the years I found that a good down to earth approach (combined with humour) can bridge and loosen up for many problems, but it didn't change the fact that sales, design and production lived in their own worlds.

Japanese products are on a whole, more free from faults than those of almost every other country (I'm not Japanese :) so I'm not biased). I've heard it's "thier culture" but how is it different to us others regarding "doing the right things right first time"?

I'll throw in a couple of statements/remarks to see if they get a response:

1. Receiving inspection is only necessary when you don't trust your suppliers.
There's someting wrong with the purchasing department when there's a big receiving inspection function.

2. The main function of quality is to make itself redundant.
If everyone knew what their job was and did it correctly, quality control would never have been invented.

I once heard a lecturer at a seminar say, "a (male) consultant is someone who knows 100 different ways to make love, but has never had a girlfriend". He (the lecturer) was applauded.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
G

Gordon Clarke

#15
Re: Why does manufacturing see quality negatively?

Hi Jim (Wynne)
Would you care to elaborate on your one word answer? This assumes of course that the answer "leadership" was your solution.
I've had the problem personally in a few companies with "war" betwen the various departments and where top management usually leans towards supporting sales. I can see from the introductions by some members that I'm far from being the only one.
Either you've only worked at one company all your life or been unusually lucky.
My original question was seriously meant. How can quality get departments to cooperate? Does anyone have an approach that has paid off in real life? In theory a bumble bee can't fly - luckily for it, it never studied theory. A convincing arguement to top management "yes", but what could be the line of arguement?
Probably involving economics and work moral.
If the largest paying customer of the company was the local junk yard, then I think it would be easy to convince all - but it's never that easy.

Don't take this next remark wrong as I'm very pro-American, but in Europe, American cars don't exactly have a reputation for quality. Admitted, it is better now than a few years ago, but still!!!
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#16
Re: Why does manufacturing see quality negatively?

Hi Jim (Wynne)
Would you care to elaborate on your one word answer? This assumes of course that the answer "leadership" was your solution.
I am sure not answering for Jim here. He can answer for himself, and he will.

This is my response to you question:

Leadership is the driving force for most organizations. If the support from the Leadership is lacking, then that will flow down to the other Business units, which could cause this thought pattern.

This is why it is an Organizational culture that needs to change, and the Quality group needs to take the ball and run with it. The change needs to be driven, and the quality group should take the wheel.

This is just my opinion.
 
Last edited:
G

Gordon Clarke

#17
Re: Why does manufacturing see quality negatively?

I am sure not answering for Jim here. He can answer for himself, and he will.

This is my response to you question:

Leadership is the driving force for most organizations. If the support from the Leadership is lacking, then that will flow down to the other Business units, which could cause this thought pattern.

This is why it is an Organizational culture that needs to change, and the Quality group needs to take the ball and run with it. The change needs to be driven, and the quality group should take the wheel.

This is just my opinion.
Who would disagree with you on that statement? Either I'm not explaining my self clearly enough or you misunderstand.
Does anyone know of any examples from the real life as to how quality should go about getting a "weak" management to set focus on quality as being everyone's responsibilty. It's difficult to run with a ball that's chained to the wall.
That quality can be the driving force is OK, but how to get the necessary support to do what has to be done before the company goes belly up?
Saying, "I told you so" isn't exactly productive or helpful :)
 
#18
It's less about the 'culture' or 'leadership' of the business and more (IMHO) about the relative behaviours of the people in those organizations.

Rarely do quality people involve themselves in planning, to help Production (and often Engineering) departments avoid problems. Indeed, 'Quality' is often reactive and arrives after the battle is over! If you add to this their use of "techno-geek" terminology, whether it be 'ISO' - based or something similar, it's easy to see that such behaviours don't help the Production peoples' cause.

For example, if we read through the many threads about internal auditing, here at the Cove, we are constantly reminded that a lack of planning leads to poor support and acceptance of the audit program. This situation is analogous to other quality tool/methods implementation, whether it's incoming inspections, calibration controls or similar. Furthermore, the selection of quality tools is often inappropriate or not well understood by the quality folks, hence the avoidance by Production.

Quality folks should be ambassadors and work with their counterparts in planning to use the most appropriate tools for any given situation. Justification of a quality technique should be plausible not 'do this, it's good for you' approach.

Sure, Production people often 'bend the rules' and will make their 'numbers' before 'quality', but the two objectives shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#19
Re: Why does manufacturing see quality negatively?

Who would disagree with you on that statement? Either I'm not explaining my self clearly enough or you misunderstand.
Does anyone know of any examples from the real life as to how quality should go about getting a "weak" management to set focus on quality as being everyone's responsibilty. It's difficult to run with a ball that's chained to the wall.
That quality can be the driving force is OK, but how to get the necessary support to do what has to be done before the company goes belly up?
Saying, "I told you so" isn't exactly productive or helpful :)
A lot of that is how the Quality Group is managed. The Quality group needs to be able to prove (all the time), where their value is within the organization. As Andy has stated (I think that is what Andy was driving at), the Quality Group needs to be more involved in the Business process from beginning to end.

Their focus needs to be on improving the processes, improving the bottom line, and take the lead.

For example: They must be able to show Management the costs of rework, repair, scrap, and the customer interface, with the appropriate data. They also need to be good sales people, since they have to sell this to management and customer's representatives.

It is not an easy task and it takes someone strong in the Leadership of the Quality Organization.

However, I could be misinterpreting your question "Why does production see quality negatively."
 
Last edited:

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#20
Re: Why does manufacturing see quality negatively?

Hi Jim (Wynne)
Would you care to elaborate on your one word answer? This assumes of course that the answer "leadership" was your solution.
I've had the problem personally in a few companies with "war" betwen the various departments and where top management usually leans towards supporting sales. I can see from the introductions by some members that I'm far from being the only one.
Either you've only worked at one company all your life or been unusually lucky.
My original question was seriously meant. How can quality get departments to cooperate? Does anyone have an approach that has paid off in real life? In theory a bumble bee can't fly - luckily for it, it never studied theory. A convincing arguement to top management "yes", but what could be the line of arguement?
Probably involving economics and work moral.
If the largest paying customer of the company was the local junk yard, then I think it would be easy to convince all - but it's never that easy.

Don't take this next remark wrong as I'm very pro-American, but in Europe, American cars don't exactly have a reputation for quality. Admitted, it is better now than a few years ago, but still!!!
I've worked in a few companies where management understood the need for constancy of purpose, but such enlightenment is a rare commodity. I've also led horses to water and watched them die of thirst. You have to do your best to provide good reason (data) to demonstrate your point, but in the end there are some who won't listen, and will deny the bloody obvious no matter what you do.

If bumblebees couldn't fly "in theory" then they wouldn't be able to fly in practice, either, assuming the theory (or more correctly, the hypothesis) were correct. The one-word answer I gave answers the question--the general failure of American business is due to failures of leadership. If a manager believes that bumblebees can't fly despite the obvious evidence to the contrary, there's not much that can be done.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M Is SPC required for Production if a Customer does not ask for it? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
P General Production Procedure - Does anyone have a sample? Clause 7.5.1 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
P How does "Manufacturing Manager" differ from "Production Manager"? Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
J Who does most of your inspection - QC or Production Manufacturing and Related Processes 74
J Does ISO9k2k require Safety Training needed in production floor ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 20
C Looking for a company that does production hot forming Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
H TS 16949 - 7.5.2.1 - Why does TS ask for process validation for all the production? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
D ISO 9001 Clause 7.5 Production and Service Provision - What does 'Service' apply to? Service Industry Specific Topics 37
W FPS (Ford production system) - Does anybody have any interesting comments? Customer and Company Specific Requirements 8
lanley liao Does all of the suppliers need to integrated into the supplier list qualified of the company? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 2
0 To which part of 13485 does this refer? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
A Medical Device Contract Manufacturer - Does the CM need to register with FDA? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 3
J Records Control - Does each individual record need to be numbered? Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 2
lanley liao Does the customer`s trademark belong to customer-supplied property? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 2
H How does a gas turbine work on diesel fuel? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 12
G What does performance specification include? US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 1
W Where does a coatings and paint company fall in IATF? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
A How much does a complete biocompatibility test package cost? Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 1
B Does anybody know how to get older versions of Minitab to work in Windows 10? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 9
M Does the ISO 9001:2015 standard require a disaster recovery plan or emergency response plan ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
C Does an accessory need an IFU if it use is discussed in the Parent device IFU? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 5
S How long does it take to register a product with MHRA? UK Medical Device Regulations 3
M Quality Manual - Where does Revision History Section go? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 8
U Does *anyone* know a lab that will test to EN 455-4 Medical Gloves shelf life determination? EU Medical Device Regulations 1
A Brexit When does the UK responsible person need to be in place? UK Medical Device Regulations 10
M How does IEC-60601-1 apply to a non-medical device in the patient vicinity? IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 1
N Does anyone have experience of GB/T 34986-2017? China Medical Device Regulations 1
Z Does anyone have experience with EN ISO 17664 ? IEC 62366 - Medical Device Usability Engineering 9
F Does anyone have an ESD quality/cooler talk to share? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
A What does this line from MDCG 2020-3 (MDR art. 120 substantial change) mean to you? EU Medical Device Regulations 4
D Change Approval Requirements - Does every change need formal customer approval? Design and Development of Products and Processes 17
T What does AS9100 mean when it says you must establish a process to do X? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 24
L Does a backdate form format can be changed if wrong revision is used? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 8
B General Motors and Honda Alliance - What does this mean to suppliers? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
C ISO 13485 :2016 - CAPA - Does every CAPA need to be checked by regulations? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 9
A Does ISO 9001:2015 cover all the requirements of ISO 10012:2003? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
N FDA UDI - Label vs. Labeling - Does the insert need to include UDI? Other US Medical Device Regulations 1
A Does anyone have a checklist of API Spec 650 13th Edition? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 0
D Does Manufacture can submit CE mark application under MDD with NB for his New product after May 2020? EU Medical Device Regulations 3
A What does this sentence "this symbol shall be used in the orientation shown" mean in ISO 780:2015? Other Medical Device Related Standards 4
L Turkish Requirements - Does the Software need to be translated? CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 2
R Where does IATF 16949 address Process mapping? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
J Does Pakistan Medical Device Import License allows parallel import? Other Medical Device Regulations World-Wide 0
BeaBea Interesting Discussion Where Does Marketing/ Advertisement of Products fit in to ISO 9001? Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 39
P Does anyone have a API Q1 Documentation Package? Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 1
N What is our product classification? (Does Unclassified classification still exists) Other US Medical Device Regulations 14
C Does a CE mark infer meeting all applicable standards? CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 4
N Small Company - Internal audit process - Who does the audit? Internal Auditing 16
J Does anyone have an excel IATF 16949 Internal Audit checklist I could use? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
A Does AS9100 require traceability to operators performing the work? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4

Similar threads

Top Bottom