Why is a Document Control Procedure necessary? Small 2 Person Business

W

WESTPORT

#1
hello all

I AM WORKING WITH SOME SMALL BUSINESS SOME WITH TWO PERSONS. ISO 9001 REQUIRES FOR INSTANCE A PROCEDURE FOR DOCUMENT CONTROL. WHY WOULD A TWO MAN SHOW REQUIRE A DOC CONTROL PROCEDURE. I UNDERSTAND WHY THERE IS NEED FOR A PROCEDURE BUT NOT FOR A PROCESS WHERE THERE IS TWO PERSONS WHO KNOWS THE PROCESS

THANKS

WESTPORT
 
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Al Rosen

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
WESTPORT said:
hello all

I AM WORKING WITH SOME SMALL BUSINESS SOME WITH TWO PERSONS. ISO 9001 REQUIRES FOR INSTANCE A PROCEDURE FOR DOCUMENT CONTROL. WHY WOULD A TWO MAN SHOW REQUIRE A DOC CONTROL PROCEDURE. I UNDERSTAND WHY THERE IS NEED FOR A PROCEDURE BUT NOT FOR A PROCESS WHERE THERE IS TWO PERSONS WHO KNOWS THE PROCESS

THANKS

WESTPORT
There is a need, because the standard requires a documented procedure for document control. There are only 6 required documented procedures. There are other requirements that are not neccessary to document as long as everybody is performing them in the same way.

BTW, is it necessary to shout? Please turn off your caps. Thank you
 
E

engjane

#3
You always have to apply the "bus" factor....what would happen if one of the two employees got run over by a bus tonight.....how would their replacement know what needs to be done?
We all know that
a) humans make mistakes
b) humans forget things
c) its a busy life running a company

So if you have procedures in place, the new person can read them and learn....

(OK there are other reasons for having procedures but thats one of my favourite convincing arguments)

Bear in mind that it doesnt have to be fancy or long winded or printed on pretty paper. It just HAS to exist as Al kindly reminded us.

:agree1:
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
I have a hunch WESTPORT has a flawed idea of "document control."

Consider this simple scenario:
Two person job shop (mom and pop)
10 orders per week
fifty work weeks per year
100 regular customers every year
100 new or one-time customers every year

Some documents the mom and pop might want to control:
  1. incoming inspection of raw materials (how else will you know if incoming quality is consistent?)
  2. final inspection of outgoing product (how do you keep track of what processes may need to be improved?)
  3. engineering drawings of customer's products (how do you know customer doesn't change requirements in midstream?)
  4. production records of recurring products (how do you know if you made a profit on a particular product? did the job take longer or shorter time? why?)
If mom and pop make a BUSINESS decision to maintain records and documents to ensure they meet customer's requirements, the step to controlling them is VERY simple for mom and pop - they agree
  • to keep the documents and records
  • keep them safe from harm
  • to mark copies as "Copies" (versus controlled original)
  • not to change them without a formal process
  • to periodically purge old, obsolete documents and records by setting a retention period that makes business sense and complies with government regulations and/or customer requirements as they may apply
I hope this puts it all into perspective.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Quality as practiced in the Cove!
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#5
Wes Bucey said:
Welcome to the wonderful world of Quality as practiced in the Cove!
It's really more about quality as an aspect of standards and regulatory requirements rather than "...as practiced in the Cove...".

I can see where a document control procedure in a 2 person business is rather silly in some aspects. The need for document control really depends upon what the product and processes are. If you're making very low volume items with high reliability aerospace or nuclear requirements, document control (and control of records) will be more important than if the 2 people are making jewelery.

I really think that if the thread starter provides some details about his/her specific situation, we will be better able to provide more applicable comments rather than blanket statements.

As to the 'bus' example, well - I've used a similar analogy many times myself, but mainly in larger companies. In smaller companies I have found when you have less than 15 people typically everyone knows what everyone else does, how they do it, etc. Admittedly some more than others.

And we have to look at what constitutes document control. If I am 1 person of a 2 person company document control can be my harddrive - No master list or such necessary. This is also true in larger companies which embrace distributed document control. In a 1 person company a simple flow chart will suffice. Considering the 6 procedures requirement, it's really not worth getting upset - Just do it and get it over with. It's less about the procedure as a document than it is about the defined 'system'. Don't make the document control system complex.

I've cited this a lot in these forums, but what the heck - One more time won't hurt. This is a document control matrix for a 14 person company: http://Elsmar.com/pdf_files/Doc_Matrix.pdf
 
M

meensy

#6
think about why document?

WESTPORT said:
hello all

I AM WORKING WITH SOME SMALL BUSINESS SOME WITH TWO PERSONS. ISO 9001 REQUIRES FOR INSTANCE A PROCEDURE FOR DOCUMENT CONTROL. WHY WOULD A TWO MAN SHOW REQUIRE A DOC CONTROL PROCEDURE. I UNDERSTAND WHY THERE IS NEED FOR A PROCEDURE BUT NOT FOR A PROCESS WHERE THERE IS TWO PERSONS WHO KNOWS THE PROCESS

THANKS

WESTPORT
Hi,

So you are very clear that procedure shall exists which basically will avoide person dependence, will ensure availability of right version at right time.

Now let us think about why we need a process I could site following reason:

1. If you are not documenting the process your process can vary depending on the urgency, mood of a person (whatever 2 persons you have...)
2. Over a period you process may keep on changing as per individual perception or as per the perception of the dominant person
3. Auditor will not be able to audit the procedure because whatever you say is process then in absence of document

One advantage we see while documenting is we think about a particular aspects from various angles and really get some good improvement areas as we really think in detail about a particular aspect.

Process is needed, it can be a short one page flow chart, no problem...

Regards,
 
W

WESTPORT

#7
Thanks Guys for all your reply. very much appreciated.

however I think that i would agree with the need to control documents, but i cant see the logic that you are required to document a procedure, when two persons Know what documents are to be controlled.

Here is my logics

ISO 9001 is for anytype of business: size and type

Process type-manufacture hot sause
no of employees-2

key documents includes, incomming raw material inspection, final product inspection, Recipie, ETC

now i understand the logics of ensuring that these documents be controlled, but the sinareo is the two persons know when to use the document, how to control them, store, retrieve, dispose and all the other requirements. why then document the procedure.

I know that the standard requires it, but i think it is impractical is many situation when it comes to many small business.

your further comment is well appreciated

thank you
Westport
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#8
The 'problem' is that you are expecting what you consider to be rational. And we all do have our opinions on what makes sense. To me it rarely makes sense for a 2 person company to register to ISO 9001, not to mention require a lot of documentation.

But it is not up to the company to determine the requirements - Only to interpret the requirements as they apply to their company. Some requirements you will not get around, and 1 of those is that there are 6 required documented procedures. I do disagree with you in 1 respect - I don't think a requirement for 6 documented procedures is a significant issue or overly burdensome.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
WESTPORT said:
Thanks Guys for all your reply. very much appreciated.

however I think that i would agree with the need to control documents, but i cant see the logic that you are required to document a procedure, when two persons Know what documents are to be controlled.

Here is my logics

ISO 9001 is for anytype of business: size and type

Process type-manufacture hot sause
no of employees-2

key documents includes, incomming raw material inspection, final product inspection, Recipie, ETC

now i understand the logics of ensuring that these documents be controlled, but the sinareo is the two persons know when to use the document, how to control them, store, retrieve, dispose and all the other requirements. why then document the procedure.

I know that the standard requires it, but i think it is impractical is many situation when it comes to many small business.

your further comment is well appreciated

thank you
Westport
Please don't overcomplicate this. "Documenting a procedure" is simply reducing to written words the actions you take. The words don't have to be "highfaluting" - they can be simple and straightforward.
Example:
Procedure for document control
  • Document presented for Control
  • Have approval/ acknowledgement? (if yes, proceed, if not, get approval)
  • Is this change to existing document? (if yes, discard previous version)
  • Correct Rev. level?
  • Generate hard or soft copy as required for storage
  • Set retention period
  • Set up system to audit who removes document for review and ensure replacement (either mom or pop can do it, they just have to agree to replace it)
  • Create file and update cross indexes
  • Store document
  • Review document at end of retention period to decide 'keep, transfer, destroy'
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#10
Wes Bucey said:
Please don't overcomplicate this. "Documenting a procedure" is simply reducing to written words
Or a simple flow chart (vs. text).
 
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