Why new clause (7.1.6) in ISO 9001:2015?

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#1
Hello everybody

Why the standard added a new clause 7.1.6 to address something what is been considered in the past?

The knowledge, normally which was identified as value , was integrated to procedures, job descriptions, training, etc.
The same way, when a "lesson learned" (something good or bad) was detected, turned in a corrective action or in an improvement, which finally were integrated into the management system.

Needs for new training were also addressed.

So Lesson learned , IMHO shouldn´t be mentioned as additional actions to what existed in the standard.
or why have to be considered in a different way?

What is your perception in this issue?, dont you think that lesson learned is what we were doing in 2008 version?
Please give your comments
 
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Tagin

Trusted Information Resource
#2
It seems to me that it is about capturing the broader "braintrust" of an organization. For example, there may the case where someone knows what to do, but until they retire or leave, there were no issues, so no 'lessons learned' were recorded from that person's skills. But once they leave, the organization realizes they've lost some important knowledge.

Where capturing 'lessons learned' is reactive, capturing organizational knowledge is proactive.

From TS9002:2016:
"Organizational knowledge is the specific knowledge of the organization coming either from its collective experience or from the individual experience of its persons. This knowledge is or can be used to achieve the organization’s quality objectives or its intended results.

The organization should consider how to determine and manage the organizational knowledge required to meet its present and future needs. Persons of the organization and their experience are the foundation of organizational knowledge. Capturing and sharing such experience and knowledge can generate synergies leading to the creation of new or updated organizational knowledge
."
 

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
#3
Why the standard added a new clause 7.1.6 to address something what is been considered in the past?
Good day @qualprod
I can't tell you definitively why the authors "added" this clause. However, based on my past experience I can certainly assume why this was added. I believe we have all heard (or said!) ..."well, we used to do it that way but stopped doing it when Suzie retired", or...."Larry's the only one who knows how to do it and he's on vacation today" or....etc..etc.e.tc...

The auditors hear this type of responses also, and they feed this back to certification / oversight bodies.

As we know, ISO 9001 no longer requires any procedures , however, it does require ...
- 7.5.1 b) documented information determined by the organization as being necessary...-

7.1.6 does not require that we accomplish via documentation, however, in practice most organizations capture "organizational knowledge" via work instructions, curriculum, etc..etc... This is often a viable way to address 7.1.6 (i.e. show a link between roles [organization structure/process owners] and any documentation/curriculum utilized to train/move people into those roles.) so that even when Suzie retires or Larry is on vacation, there is a strategic approach to sustaining the knowledge they had.

Hope this helps.

Be well.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
An example: In a place I used to work, it was discovered one day that the welding gas had run out and no one had reordered. Purchasing was queried as to why the gas hadn't been replenished and the answer was "We don't order welding gas. We don't know who does." It turned out that the task, some years before, had been delegated to a particular manufacturing engineer. No one knew why, but no one questioned it because it had never been an issue before. The engineer left the company abruptly, so no replenishment order had been placed. Lines were down for several hours as a result.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#5
An example: In a place I used to work, it was discovered one day that the welding gas had run out and no one had reordered. Purchasing was queried as to why the gas hadn't been replenished and the answer was "We don't order welding gas. We don't know who does." It turned out that the task, some years before, had been delegated to a particular manufacturing engineer. No one knew why, but no one questioned it because it had never been an issue before. The engineer left the company abruptly, so no replenishment order had been placed. Lines were down for several hours as a result.
Excellent example, but I fear, however, that the overwhelming majority of ISO 9001:2015 certified organizations have potential time bombs such as this one and compliance with the standard will not increase an iota of chances of they not incurring in a similar problem. It is humanly impossible for all of tribal knowledge to be captured and managed. Things will fall through the proverbial cracks; what differentiates a learning organization from the dysfunctional ones is the triggering of an investigation if similar issues still exist in the organization.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Excellent example, but I fear, however, that the overwhelming majority of ISO 9001:2015 certified organizations have potential time bombs such as this one and compliance with the standard will not increase an iota of chances of they not incurring in a similar problem. It is humanly impossible for all of tribal knowledge to be captured and managed. Things will fall through the proverbial cracks; what differentiates a learning organization from the dysfunctional ones is the triggering of an investigation if similar issues still exist in the organization.
I agree. A dedicated effort to identify instances of undocumented tribal knowledge will always fail on some level.
 

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Excellent example, but I fear, however, that the overwhelming majority of ISO 9001:2015 certified organizations have potential time bombs such as this one and compliance with the standard will not increase an iota of chances of they not incurring in a similar problem. It is humanly impossible for all of tribal knowledge to be captured and managed. Things will fall through the proverbial cracks; what differentiates a learning organization from the dysfunctional ones is the triggering of an investigation if similar issues still exist in the organization.
Sidney
For this, in project management there are practices which help to improve the lesson learned practice, by applying other levels
of actions. take a look at here Lessons Learned

EDIT: 404 link fixed.
 
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