Why not make 'standards' free?

Should 'Standards' Be Free?

  • Good and Possible

    Votes: 24 72.7%
  • Good but impossible for following reasons... (post)

    Votes: 8 24.2%
  • Bad, because... (post)

    Votes: 1 3.0%
  • ... History does not bear subjunctive mood ...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    33
M

M Greenaway

#21
Right thats it !

I cant sit back and watch this trans-european intellectual fondling anymore.

Its all about what you can get away with for the cert on the wall, and before Johnny rears his ugly head can I just say that there is nothing in ISO9001 or AS9100 that says anything about 'motivation for quality'.:bonk: :thedeal: :frust:
 
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A

Aaron Lupo

#22
M Greenaway said:
Right thats it !

I cant sit back and watch this trans-european intellectual fondling anymore.

Its all about what you can get away with for the cert on the wall, and before Johnny rears his ugly head can I just say that there is nothing in ISO9001 or AS9100 that says anything about 'motivation for quality'.:bonk: :thedeal: :frust:
Where the heck did that come from?
 
A

Al Dyer

#24
All I can add is that someone has to pay for the "standards" to be published and somebody has to pay for the cost. My problem would be with organizations selling them at different prices for different "levels of "participation" Sounds like one group subsidizing the other.


Al...
 
G

Graeme

#25
It's a myth - nothing is 'free'

To add to this old -- but still relevant -- discussion, there is a link to an excellent article that discusses this topic in depth.

The Myth of Free Standards: Giving Away the Farm (a PDF document)
Andrew N. Bank, September 1998

If you want it in HTML format, then look here.

An example from the paper:
... By making standards available at no cost, we are effectively saying to users, "An army of volunteers just spent colossal amounts of time and money on developing this standard. It should be an essential part of your product development, one of the important requirements for market acceptance, and the blueprints for the utmost safety and quality of your product. Now, here it is for free." How credible are our statements of value and integrity if we give standards away for free? ...
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#26
Graeme said:
To add to this old -- but still relevant -- discussion, there is a link to an excellent article that discusses this topic in depth.

The Myth of Free Standards: Giving Away the Farm (a PDF document)
Andrew N. Bank, September 1998

If you want it in HTML format, then look here.

An example from the paper:
Good post, Graeme. I happen to have that document in my file from when it was first published. Yes. It is still pertinent regarding payment of some kind. The question today is "some Standards organizations and their allies" are charging fees way beyond their direct costs of producing the Standard (including all the soft costs of care and feeding of volunteers) and many fear the fees are merely going to create a burgeoning cadré of paid bureaucrats within the Standards organization. (Viz. ASQ increase of fees for certifications and training.)
 
J

Jim Biz

#27
IMHO - ISO as an organization dosent "Publish standards" it creates them - although there must be a Master copy laying around somewhere over there..

Then it lets people know which ones are current and it allows folks like ASQ
A "non-profit" :confused: Society (hehehe) :magic: to publish & distribute them.

I dont know where your set of standards came from but mine came from ASQ for a SET publishing price - which As far as I know is not negeotiable :lmao:
 
G

Graeme

#28
Jim Biz said:
IMHO - ISO as an organization dosent "Publish standards" it creates them - although there must be a Master copy laying around somewhere over there..

Then it lets people know which ones are current and it allows folks like ASQ
A "non-profit" :confused: Society (hehehe) :magic: to publish & distribute them.

I dont know where your set of standards came from but mine came from ASQ for a SET publishing price - which As far as I know is not negeotiable :lmao:
Jim,

As the sponsor of an international standard, ISO actually does have some control over the minimum selling price. Since every standard is copyrighted, every organization that republishes it must pay a fee to the copyright holder. It seems logical that the minimum break-even price would then be the copyright fee plus the cost of production and distribution.

ISO standards are normally distributed by the ISO member organization of a country. In the USA, that is ANSI. In the specific case of quality managment system standards, ANSI recognizes ASQ as the appropriate standards developing organization in the US. Both organizations sell copies of the standards. They may or may not have their own covers on them. They may charge different prices -- actually, I have seen a number of cases where it is more expensive to buy it from ANSI.

One way to compare costs of standards is to look up the price on the ISO web site. It is listed in Swiss Francs (CHF) and any curreny-conversion web site will allow you to find the current price in your own currency. That can then be used as a comparison benchmark. For example, ISO 9001:2000 is listed by ISO at CHF 97,00 -- today (2004-06-11) this equates to US$ 77.15. The ASQ price for this standard (print version) is $40.00 for members and $50.00 for others.

Other standards developing organizations - ASTM and IEEE come to mind instantly - sell their own standards and rarely let other organizations do so. The major exception seems to be if the standard is accepted as an American National Standard, in which case you can also purchase it through ANSI.

There are also commercial third parties that are in the business of reselling standards - a major one is headquartered near Denver. They must first purchase reproduction rights to the standard from an appropriate organization, and then resell it to their customers.

There are also retailers that sell copies of standards as books - a popular internet-based bookseller, for example. When a customer buys through them, the bookseller must first purchase the standard from the publisher (ASQ for example). While they may be able to purchase copies at a "wholesale" price, that is not guaranteed and is not always passed on to their retail customers. And then they add a markup to cover their expenses, plus a "shipping and handling" fee.

Yes, organizations such as ASQ and ANSI make a profit (show an operating surplus). They must, in order to survive. There's nothing wrong with that. After all, an objective of your own organization is to make a profit as well. Otherwise, it will not survive. (Deming, The new economics [I think])
 
V

vanputten

#29
ISO does not publish the standard. The Member Bodies of ISO publish the standard. The costs are determined by the individual Member Bodies of ISO so they can cover their costs of publication and distribution. Make sure you have all the facts before criticizing anything. In the US, the ASQ publishes ISO 9001:2000 under the watchful eye of ANSI (a governemntal body). I can assure you that the ASQ is NOT making lots of money off of the sale of ISO 9001:2000. Consultants and registrars are making the money.

Also, if you do not like the process, please join your member body so your voice can be heard. Be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Thank you, Dirk van Putten
 
V

vanputten

#30
I've been thinking abut this thread. Why aren't all published materials free? Why do we pay for published material? Why would a standard be free but most other published material have a cost? Is there a reason we accept that we have to pay for a book but a standard should be free? What is the difference? I have to pay for a Deming book but the ISO 9001:2000 standard should be free? Why?

Wondering, Dirk van Putten
 
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