Why OHSAS 18001:2007 makes no reference to 'Targets' associated with Objectives?

Randy

Super Moderator
#11
Now if you guys are all done with "guessing", maybe we can actually supply a correct answer.

1st....The word Target has never been used with 18001 either in the original document or current revision.

2nd...To Mr. Wynne....The document is in harmony with ISO documentation when it comes to format and content.

Now here is the "Target" answer and ya'll would normally pay a whole bunch of money to hear me say this...........

The organization has to have documented Occupational Health & Safety Objectives..........no question here. Why is there no mention of targets? Targets (of a sort) are mentioned........in Section 3 "Terms and Definitions"....actually in 3.14-OHS Objective & 3.15-OHS Performance.

YOU HAVE TO USE THE WHOLE DOCUMENT! The words mean something and you have to get past using the "shall's alone.

Let's look at what the Standard says..............

3.14 OH&S objective
OH&S goal, in terms of OH&S performance (3.15), that an organization (3.17) sets itself to achieve
NOTE 1 Objectives should be quantified wherever practicable.
NOTE 2 4.3.3 requires that OH&S objectives are consistent with the OH&S policy (3.16).

3.15 OH&S performance
measurable results of an organization’s (3.17) management of its OH&S risks (3.21)
NOTE 1 OH&S performance measurement includes measuring theeffectiveness of the organization’s controls.
NOTE 2 In the context of OH&S management systems (3.13), results can also be measured against the organization’s (3.17) OH&S policy (3.16), OH&S objectives (3.14), and other OH&S performance requirements.


As you can see we have an Objective (What) and Performance (How much) which is exactly the same as ISO 14001:2004's Objectives and Targets.....ergo, harmony (for you Jim)...If you don't believe me check it out.


Guy's, I've found it best to use the tools that are supplied and not to try and guess.

Now if you really want to be messed up ask how an objective actually turns into a requirement thhat has to be met in 4.2 & 4.3.2 and evaluated in 4.5.2..
 
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S

samsung

#12
Thank you Sir, for a wise explanation well supported with evidence & justifications.

I was wrong with my presumption for the older version having reference to word 'Target'. Your post now makes it quite clear.

Now if you really want to be messed up ask how an objective actually turns into a requirement that has to be met in 4.2 & 4.3.2 and evaluated in 4.5.2..
It is really a very good question and I guess that it refers to the organization's policy commitment for 'Prevention of injury & ill health' which, infact, is a legal requirement, almost in all national laws. Hence, the objective of preventing injury & ill health automatically becomes a 'requirement' which has to be in met in 4.2, 4.3.2 & finally its evaluation is warranted under 4.5.2.

Best regards,
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#13
Thank you Sir, for a wise explanation well supported with evidence & justifications.

I was wrong with my presumption for the older version having reference to word 'Target'. Your post now makes it quite clear.



It is really a very good question and I guess that it refers to the organization's policy commitment for 'Prevention of injury & ill health' which, infact, is a legal requirement, almost in all national laws. Hence, the objective of preventing injury & ill health automatically becomes a 'requirement' which has to be in met in 4.2, 4.3.2 & finally its evaluation is warranted under 4.5.2.

Best regards,
Good guess, but not quite.........

We see many times that organizations with higher corporate governance are told to reduce, eliminate or improve something.....lets say a "10% reduction in Injury Rate" is a corporate objective.

If the organization then establishes "their" objective as a "10% reduction in Injury Rate" they have not met the requirements of 4.3.3. You ask "why"? Have they not established an objective as required?

Nope, not even close, and here's why.

When a higher organization, in this case "The Corporation" establishes an objective or some other specified performance criteria like the objective we have above the lower level organization does not have any options...it must meet the corporate requirement....therefore claiming the coprorate objective as your own does not meet the definition of an Objective provided in clause 3.14...."..performance it sets itself to achieve"...
The Corporate Objective falls in line with the requirements of clause 4.3.2-Legal and other requirements..."other OH&S requirements that are applicable to it..." These "other requirements" are referred to in the policy (4.2) and have to be evaluated for compliance (4.5.2.2)

Now if the organization establishes an objective for a "11% reduction in Injury Rate" then they meet the requirement of 4.3.3 because they set it themselves, and they also meet the 4.3.2 piece and they are on the way to meeting 4.2 committment for other requirments and improvement as well.

See what I mean? Some folks would view this as interpretation when actually it is just applying the standard to itself.

And there you have it.
 
S

samsung

#14
:applause: Excellent piece of information which, among other things, makes one more thing clear to me "YOU HAVE TO USE THE WHOLE DOCUMENT! The words mean something" . I really never thought on these lines.

Cove is a great platform to learn & learn & gain a lot.

Best regards,
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#15
We see many times that organizations with higher corporate governance are told to reduce, eliminate or improve something.....lets say a "10% reduction in Injury Rate" is a corporate objective.

If the organization then establishes "their" objective as a "10% reduction in Injury Rate" they have not met the requirements of 4.3.3. You ask "why"? Have they not established an objective as required?

Nope, not even close, and here's why.

When a higher organization, in this case "The Corporation" establishes an objective or some other specified performance criteria like the objective we have above the lower level organization does not have any options...it must meet the corporate requirement....therefore claiming the coprorate objective as your own does not meet the definition of an Objective provided in clause 3.14...."..performance it sets itself to achieve"...
The Corporate Objective falls in line with the requirements of clause 4.3.2-Legal and other requirements..."other OH&S requirements that are applicable to it..." These "other requirements" are referred to in the policy (4.2) and have to be evaluated for compliance (4.5.2.2)

Now if the organization establishes an objective for a "11% reduction in Injury Rate" then they meet the requirement of 4.3.3 because they set it themselves, and they also meet the 4.3.2 piece and they are on the way to meeting 4.2 committment for other requirments and improvement as well.

See what I mean? Some folks would view this as interpretation when actually it is just applying the standard to itself.
I'm one of those folks. I view it as incorrect interpretation, because it makes no sense, and seems to be an overly-legalistic reading of "...sets itself to achieve." "Sets itself" could reasonably be interpreted as meaning the company "readies itself," and in terms of grammar, this is probably a more logical interpretation because if it means what you say it does, the "...to achieve" part is redundant. In other words, if it said "[Objectives] the organization sets itself," with emphasis on "itself" it would mean what you want it to mean.

The idea that the lower-level company must have objectives/targets/things it wants to achieve that are more stringent that those of a parent organization makes no sense on any level, and invites waste.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#16
The idea that the lower-level company must have objectives/targets/things it wants to achieve that are more stringent that those of a parent organization makes no sense on any level, and invites waste.
There is nothing about a "must" in here. An organization that is under corporate mandate has no choice in the matter and the lack of choice makes the mandate a requirement...like compliance to the law, it's not optional. The reason for Objectives on the otherhand is for the organization to establish its own level of performance improvement beyond those mandated...this is where part of the "voluntary" aspect of these management systems approaches comes into play.

One has got to get out of playing "it depends on what is is game"
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#17
There is nothing about a "must" in here. An organization that is under corporate mandate has no choice in the matter and the lack of choice makes the mandate a requirement...like compliance to the law, it's not optional. The reason for Objectives on the otherhand is for the organization to establish its own level of performance improvement beyond those mandated...this is where part of the "voluntary" aspect of these management systems approaches comes into play.

One has got to get out of playing "it depends on what is is game"
No games involved--there's absolutely no reason that a parent company can't set objectives (or whatever you want to call them) for its subsidiaries. If a subsidiary believes that some other objective is more reasonable, there should be wiggle room in the parent's policy to allow for it, whether the subsidiary's objective(s) is/are more or less stringent.
 
S

somerqc

#18
Ok...so I can figure out who I agree with. What about the following situation.

corporate objective - 0 Lost Time Accidents/Incidences

Divisional objective - 2 Lost Time Accidents/Incidences (the reason for this is that last year they had 15 Lost Time Accidents - wasn't considered reasonable to go from 15 to 2 as a yearly goal - long term 0 is the goal)

Would this meet the requirements of the standard or not?
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#19
No games involved--there's absolutely no reason that a parent company can't set objectives (or whatever you want to call them) for its subsidiaries. If a subsidiary believes that some other objective is more reasonable, there should be wiggle room in the parent's policy to allow for it, whether the subsidiary's objective(s) is/are more or less stringent.
There is wiggle room as you call it, but an objective established by a higher organization is a requirement the organization has to meet...it ain't optional

Now if the higher structure wants to allow the organization to perform at a lower level of performance that it has established that's their business and the standard couldn't care less...but understand, the lower level of performance established by the higher organization is still a requirement that must be identified, committed to and evaluated by the lower organization, it's not an objective as defined by the standard.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#20
There is wiggle room as you call it, but an objective established by a higher organization is a requirement the organization has to meet...it ain't optional.
It is not "...a requirement the organization hasto meet..." (emphasis mine) An objective is something the organization must work towards, and there are many times when objectives aren't attained and indeed there are times when they can't be. You're confusing "objective" (in the sense used in the standards) with "mandate."
 
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