Withdraw NCR Request - External QMS Audit is In Progress

J

joshubob

#1
A 2 days external QMS audit is in progress, the first day the auditor has raised a Major NCR. Our QMR asked the concerned department to write a corrective action procedure and they have written. At the closing meeting our QMR will request the auditor to examine the procedure and also to withdraw the NCR. How the auditor will respond?
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Withdraw NCR

A 2 days external QMS audit is in progress, the first day the auditor has raised a Major NCR. Our QMR asked the concerned department to write a corrective action procedure and they have written. At the closing meeting our QMR will request the auditor to examine the procedure and also to withdraw the NCR. How the auditor will respond?
Do you mean, there was no Corrective Action procedure written?

If there was no procedure, and no active and effective corrective action process in place; then it is a major nonconformity!!

A (corrective action) process can not be implemented in a few days.

I am surprised that your organization missed this. :mg:

Stijloor.
 
S

samsung

#3
Re: Withdraw NCR

Do you mean, there was no Corrective Action procedure written?

If there was no procedure, and no active and effective corrective action process in place; then it is a major nonconformity!!

A (corrective action) process can not be implemented in a few days.

I am surprised that your organization missed this. :mg:

Stijloor.
IMO the OP's MR intends to influence the auditor to withdraw the NCR on the premise of corrective action taken by the organization before the closing meeting.

:agree1: if it's a major NC, it's unlikely that it can be closed in a day. But it depends on how the CB has defined it.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#4
I can't speak for Certification Bodies other than the one I mostly work with, but currently they do not permit an NCR to be closed during an audit.

Up until a few years ago, they did. I suspect that it was due to the fact that an NCR that was rushed to close before the end of the audit usually had poor root cause analysis and a resulting poor corrective action. I also suspect that no longer accepting NCR responses during the audit was driven by the Accreditation bodies, but I don't know that.

On a slightly different tone, there is nothing wrong with discussing an NCR, even down to the last few minutes of the audit. There is nothing wrong with providing additional (already in existence, not newly fabricated) information to strengthen your position. I saw this recently, when the auditor was ready to write an NCR over lack of validation of a special process. The client was able to successfully defend his position that the process in question was not a special process, that is, that the outcome could be fully verified and validation was not necessary.

It sounds like you need to take the hit and then work on an effective root cause analysis with an accompanying effective corrective action.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#6
A 2 days external QMS audit is in progress, the first day the auditor has raised a Major NCR. Our QMR asked the concerned department to write a corrective action procedure and they have written. At the closing meeting our QMR will request the auditor to examine the procedure and also to withdraw the NCR. How the auditor will respond?
If this is a question from an auditing exam, you answer that the NCR stands as reported since there is no evidence of "closure" and effectiveness. If this was a real world scenario, the same thing applies.

If this was an audit against AS9100C, AS9110A or AS9120A, the auditor would be PROHIBITED from reviewing anything related to that NCR, during the course of the same audit.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#7
A 2 days external QMS audit is in progress, the first day the auditor has raised a Major NCR. Our QMR asked the concerned department to write a corrective action procedure and they have written. At the closing meeting our QMR will request the auditor to examine the procedure and also to withdraw the NCR. How the auditor will respond?
I expect the auditor will respond in that the NC has been raised, and the response-correction-follow up will commence as is normal in any NC that an auditor raises. Getting the fix underway during the audit is fine, but no registrar should omit the NC based on speed to respond. The issue was, after all that a major discrepancy was found during the audit. That does not change.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
A 2 days external QMS audit is in progress, the first day the auditor has raised a Major NCR. Our QMR asked the concerned department to write a corrective action procedure and they have written. At the closing meeting our QMR will request the auditor to examine the procedure and also to withdraw the NCR. How the auditor will respond?
By now your 2 day audit must have been done and NC's firmed up.
Not knowing the situation as you have experienced, it is always good for the MR (QMR) to discuss this out with your auditor, if they are willing to see a correction to the noticed situation, and reconsider the NC by the closing meeting.
If your QMS is otherwise good and that auditor agrees a correction evidenced will set the matter right, he may be willing to have a look and give you that opportunity.
Please note that I have used the word correction, and not corrective action. If the noticed NC still needs a corrective action based on the auditor's assessment, you may still have to do more than just providing a procedure.
 
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qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#9
A 2 days external QMS audit is in progress, the first day the auditor has raised a Major NCR. Our QMR asked the concerned department to write a corrective action procedure and they have written. At the closing meeting our QMR will request the auditor to examine the procedure and also to withdraw the NCR. How the auditor will respond?
If accepted by the auditor, I see this only as a "patch", a containment action.
This action cannot be accepted as a corrective action , because the root cause is not fixed yet. Your organization shall approach this non conformity applying the tools of problem solving and shall demonstrate that the entire activity is perfomed as per what established.
I think that the non conformity will remain open and the auditor will perform a follow up within the timeframe set as per registration body rule. He will visit you again within 90 day ( usually this is time frame) , in order to verify if the plan to correct the ncn is ok. The verification of the effectiveness will be checked in the next surveillance audit. If the follow up is negative, this could jeopardize your certification.
Hope this helps.:bigwave:
 
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P

PE-2011

#10
Instead of NCR (Non Conformity Report) noways seeing CAR (Corrective Action Request). I feel by meaning both are same. Is it?

Maheswari
 
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