Would you spend your own $$$ for ISO 9001 registration

[Jim Wynne]

We have already devolved on one side to "displacement" (a term in comparative psychology where the subject transfers to a different topic in order to avoid a direct confrontation. Animals protecting territories often do this by stopping to preen themselves or appearing to lose interest instead of battling an encroacher.) The switch to humor, however crude or rude, is a prime example of human displacement.

Displacement activity is defined as being inappropriate to the stimulus that provoked it. There's a big difference between animal psychology, especially in the area of certain stimulus-response behaviors, and a human who chooses a form of diplomacy over the continuation of a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Displacement activity is defined as being inappropriate to the stimulus that provoked it. There's a big difference between animal psychology, especially in the area of certain stimulus-response behaviors, and a human who chooses a form of diplomacy over the continuation of a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant.

That may be, but I have scars from some encounters with "unarmed" combatants. Mostly, those scars come from tripping and falling on my own sword in my eagerness to establish mastery in the contest. Sometimes, however, they came when my back was turned as I quit the fight.

You are correct in that fighting with an unarmed combatant when you have a full armory is perceived as being a bully, not a hero.

Maybe the MOST difficult lesson to learn is to let a fool be a fool for all to see, rather than insult the intelligence of other observers by pointing out the obvious.

Perhaps it IS SUFFICIENT to point to the controlling document, Guide 62 (which we are now assured is still current), and let interested parties formulate their own conclusions regarding the positions various posters have taken in this thread.

 

[Jim Wynne]

That may be, but I have scars from some encounters with "unarmed" combatants. Mostly, those scars come from tripping and falling on my own sword in my eagerness to establish mastery in the contest. Sometimes, however, they came when my back was turned as I quit the fight.

You are correct in that fighting with an unarmed combatant when you have a full armory is perceived as being a bully, not a hero.

Maybe the MOST difficult lesson to learn is to let a fool be a fool for all to see, rather than insult the intelligence of other observers by pointing out the obvious.

Perhaps it IS SUFFICIENT to point to the controlling document, Guide 62 (which we are now assured is still current), and let interested parties formulate their own conclusions regarding the positions various posters have taken in this thread.

Amazing. Once again, I hoist the white flag. :truce: I hope that it at least gets me another amateur psychology lesson, and perhaps affords you the opportunity for a few more gratuitous insults.

 

[Carl Keller]

After a long night of drinking out of a boot, (my "discplacement activity"), I would have to agree with Wes, I don't think this thread is going to go anywhere.

Someone may find some benefit in opening a new thread to discuss the interpretation of guide 62, however methinks it would get heated quickly.

Carl-

 

[Paul Simpson]

Let it run

MY two penn'orth FWIW is to let the thread run. I have out together a "Circular Argument" detector and set it to ignore. In the unlikely event that anyone would like to set up a thread on Guide 62 then that might let this thread get back to its topic "Would you pay for ISO certification out of your own money."

I for one am going to set up a poll about value added auditing (which is where I came in).

 

[Denis9001 - 2007]

I'm with a certification body so biased. Forget how good your quality is and whether you have a good QMS. True you don't need a certificate for that. The question is how can the customer believe you (confidence). Would you spend your own money on buying company shares only because the company told you they make good profits or would you demand that an independent CPA had audited the books and certified them to be true. So really the question is not about ISO9000 but certification in general. Why bother getting a university degree. You went to uni and know the stuff so why bother with the cert.

 

[Carl Keller]

Denis,

The problem is, with ISO you get the certificate regardless of whether you pass the test or not. And once you get it, you only need to pay your invoice to keep it.

As evidence, tens of thousands of registration certificates have been granted in the U.S. over the last 10 years and only about a dozen have been pulled because they failed their audits.

I would certainly spend my own money if the company required me to have certification, but the certification itself is a wate of money otherwise. It adds no value to the system. I could use that money to actually put ISO to good use rather than "certify" the system. If you are truly following the standard, your internal audits will keep the system in check just as well as a Registrar.

Using your College example, would you be more comfortable saying
"I see you have a certificate in Excel"
or
"show me an example of your Excel abilities"

Your points are well taken, but I would respect a company more that said they were ISO compliant and offered to let us show up unannounced and audit them anytime more than a company that rested on an ISO certificate.

Carl-

 

[Paul Simpson]

Valueless certificates?

The problem is, with ISO you get the certificate regardless of whether you pass the test or not. And once you get it, you only need to pay your invoice to keep it.

Interesting. I think from the amount of correspondence in these pages most people have to expend a lot of effort to maintain their registration - some people think they spend too much time maintaining registration.

As evidence, tens of thousands of registration certificates have been granted in the U.S. over the last 10 years and only about a dozen have been pulled because they failed their audits.

What you tend to find is that companies take action when they are left with non compliances. Sometimes it gets to the point when an organization's system is starting to fail and a major non compliance is raised. It is rare with this shot across their bows that organizations do not take effective corrective action. All of this information is confidential and it would not be in the public domain.

I would certainly spend my own money if the company required me to have certification, but the certification itself is a wate of money otherwise. It adds no value to the system. I could use that money to actually put ISO to good use rather than "certify" the system. If you are truly following the standard, your internal audits will keep the system in check just as well as a Registrar.

Again covered elsewhere in a lot of detail. The examination - whether initial or continuing assessment visit becomes a focus (sometimes too much so) for getting the system in shape.

Using your College example, would you be more comfortable saying
"I see you have a certificate in Excel"
or
"show me an example of your Excel abilities"

This assumes that you have the necessary time to give this person a thorough examination to determine competence. By the same analogy would you discard a qualification for a surgeon until you had seen them operate?

Your points are well taken, but I would respect a company more that said they were ISO compliant and offered to let us show up unannounced and audit them anytime more than a company that rested on an ISO certificate.

Your choice. Again if you do not see the value of the certificate I can understand you would want to do it yourself. Some of us see value in certification and see it as an opportunity of not wasting my and their time with another quality audit.

 

[qualeety]

I have a proposal to resolve all our concerns: what if a registar gets paid to find non-conformances only.

If you have a good QMS, you pay nothing and maintain registeration!!!!
If you have a lousy QMS, you pay for your sins and no more window dressing!!!!

Of course, the registar (trying to make money) will nitpick everything but it maybe a small price to pay for continual improvement.

What do you think?

 

[jcbodie]

Denis,

The problem is, with ISO you get the certificate regardless of whether you pass the test or not. And once you get it, you only need to pay your invoice to keep it. If you are truly following the standard, your internal audits will keep the system in check just as well as a Registrar.
Your points are well taken, but I would respect a company more that said they were ISO compliant and offered to let us show up unannounced and audit them anytime more than a company that rested on an ISO certificate.
Carl-

Again, Carl, your opinion and your entitled to it, but it doesn't necessarily reflect the totality of what's going on in the ISO world. I've seen a shift (for the good!) from 10 yrs. ago, where clients registering HAD to have the certificate (demanded by THEIR customers) to currently, going for registration because they see intrinsic value in it in improving their operations. These same customers say that rarely do any of their customers ask them to be registered ( I personally think this is the best reason to do ANYTHING). At least for me, the ISO market seems to have moved toward it being the choice of many (not all) companies' choosing registration. Obvious exceptions are the TS/QS, AS and maybe the TL Stds; please go talk to the "Big Three" and the Airline industry, as they are dictating this "do as I say, not as I do" quality program.

As to "if you are truly following the Standard....", in theory, this sounds good, and I agree with it. But the problem is very similar to folks who are trying to lose weight , stop drinking or stop smoking. Some folks are disciplined enough to do either on their own (including longterm maintenance of the better habits) and some folks can't do it, without continued, structured 3rd party help, i.e. AA, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig. It's very similar in principle, but relative to ISO, there are the added factors of meeting the contractual agreements and/or regulatory items, you are saying to customers that you are abiding by. (Obviously, if you fall off the wagon, start smoking again or gain weight, the only person impacted is you. In ISO, it's about what you promised to 3rd parties, and whether or not you've delivered and if they are impacted...contractual). To a 3rd Party Auditor, it is very telling when you come in the door after a 6 month break, to find the MR meeting, the IA's and assorted CA/PA's and Doc changes, have miraculously been completed just weeks or days, prior to my visit. Had we not been coming in, at regularly scheduled periods, would these things have been done, or would they have been continued to be delayed/rescheduled until the company completely forgot to do them? Hence, the existence of the 3rd party audit. Additionally, would you really accept that a person is telling you their QMS is "compliant" to ISO, without any strong, track record evidence (other than, when you start experiencing problems doing business with them)?

As far as showing up "unannounced" to visit an ISO compliant company, I'm not sure why you couldn't do this, as it has nothing to do with certification and everything to do with the company you wish to visit. There is nothing stopping a registered company from doing the same thing, with their customers. If you're referring to registrar visits, the visits are regularly scheduled, because a) the registrar needs to evaluate if what was initially viewed (and blessed) was just a "snapshot" in time, or part of a continuous, cohesive movie, and b) to make an "unannounced" visit, smacks of OSHA and FDA tactics, which are typically seen as more regulatory and enforcement actions, as opposed to ISO, which is suppose to take the attitude, that the company is "innocent, until proven guilty". JMHO

Now, please excuse me while I go out for a smoke and a 6-pack, before my AA meeting.