Would you spend your own $$$ for ISO 9001 registration

[Paul Simpson]

My last word

The mere fact that we, as a group are so divided speaks volumes. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, but when there is a divide this large, there is a problem.

Agreed. I often think of guests visiting these pages. Do they even believe we are on the same planet - never mind the same page.

WE REPRESENT THE QUALITY DISCIPLINE.

Agreed.

As far as my opinion goes, I base my beliefs on 15 years of ISO experience. I have taken 5 companies through the process from start to finish. With 2 of those companies I acted as a consultant.

We all have varying levels of experience. It just seems to have lead to diametrically opposed views of the same thing. Is that because of the different experience or are a large proportion of us just plain wrong (On whatever side).

There were some good registrars, some not so good, but one thing was overwhelming, Not one of the registrations could actually hold water in terms of ROI. The absolute only benefits of hanging a cert on the wall were marketing, and customer requirement.

Now we start to disagree. Either you have had a poor return or my experience of assessment and certification varies substantially from yours.

Some of the registrar auditors were actually very brilliant and had some great findings, but I have also heard a few nuggets of wisdom from the guy with a pint in his hand at the corner pub. The standard itself is fine, the registration side is a complete scam.

I'll agree to disagree.

The statement I made before concerning virtually all companies passing their registration and virtually none losing because of an audit came from the ISO data, year 2000, and don't think you folks across the pond are any different, the results are the same. By the way, that's about the only data contained in this whole thread which is strange considering our discipline is so data driven.

I don't think the side of the "pond" has any bearing. There are people over here criticizing ISO and registration in just as passionate terms. There are also people "over there" who support ISO and registration. Some people are leaving ISO, of those the majority voluntarily because they do not see the benefit or they think the effort required is more than they want to spend , some others are having their certification withdrawn.

Either way I am happy. If they leave voluntarily then they have made a positive choice about the direction their organization takes. If they have registration withdrawn then at least their registrar has the guts to put reputation above income.

Some of us are trying to make sure registration actually means something. In the last month I recommended one company have their certificate removed if they don't take specific action to address a hole that had appeared in their management system (and I will be back to check) and another is on special measures with a continuing assessment visit brought forward to ensure they make corective action in another (less serious) area.

Everyone keeps quibbling back and forth, but so far, it sounds like a bunch of sheep following along.

Is that sheep on both sides?

I for one would not put my money into something where everyone shared the same result (a certificate on the wall), regardless of effort.

You pay the bill, you get the cert, and oh, by the way, some of the time we are going to waste making "value added" observations that have nothing to do with the standard is not what I consider a savvy business investment.

Carl-

Again we will have to disagree. You see no value. People I work with see the value of an audit that is not totally confrontational and that gives them some food for thought.

For my part I am going to try and steer clear of adding further fuel to the flames by avoiding the circular arguments.

I will leave the forum battlefield bloodied but unbowed, reserving the right to post my views and looking forward to commenting on other statements on the cove.

 

[Carl Keller]

Paul,

My reference to the "Pond" was a general one, but somewhat in reaction to Denis 9001 comments concerning ethics and methods in Thailand vs. the U.S.

I think the disparity exists in all countries.

Yes, I think there are "sheep" on both sides.

You would spend the money for your company to get registration, I on the other hand would use those $$ to make my system stronger, rather than have it audited by the 3rd party.

Forgetting who is "right or wrong" for a moment, I think the wide range of views and severely opposed parties amongst us reduces our credibility as a whole.

Thanks for your insight, your post was a good one.

Carl-

 

[Paul Simpson]

Never assume!

You would spend the money for your company to get registration, I on the other hand would use those $$ to make my system stronger, rather than have it audited by the 3rd party.

Actually I voted no, I wouldn't go for registration.

It is quite a long time ago but I remember posting to the effect that there should be a third option - It depends what's in it for me.

If there is a marketing / customer driver then my company may go for it but the three directors here have over 55 years combined QA experience including systems development as employee and consultant, running operational arms of registrars etc. I am sufficiently confident (some say arrogant) that the "value add" we could get would be minimal. I know that sounds contrary to previous posts in this and other threads but that is the confidence / arrogance bit!

Forgetting who is "right or wrong" for a moment, I think the wide range of views and severely opposed parties amongst us reduces our credibility as a whole.

Agreed. If the so-called experts can't agree then what hope is there for the people starting down the road.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Paul,
Forgetting who is "right or wrong" for a moment, I think the wide range of views and severely opposed parties amongst us reduces our credibility as a whole.
Carl-

Carl,
I always try to remember the quote I've seen attributed to George Bernard Shaw: When two men in business together always agree, one of them is unnecessary.

If there's wide disagreement here, I think it's more a reflection of the state of reality than anyone just arbitrarily gainsaying or arguing for the sake of argument. I think that in general, the Cove is a place where people can get widely accepted answers to questions, but it's also a place where experienced and passionate people discuss the vagaries of the profession, and there's always something to be learned from that as well.

 

[Carl Keller]

In many cases, I would agree, there are many "Right ways" and many "wrong ways" to do something, but this is a bit different.

When a large population of the experts disagree with the current trend, there is a problem.

Personally, I believe it is because interpretation of the standard leads to a subjective opinion concerning a system that is supposed to be as objective as possible, but we will save that for another thread.

If a significant number of Quality practitioners, many of which are tasked with implementing ISO would not spend their own $ on registering to it, how useful a tool is it?

I guess you could make the argument that half of us do think it is valuable enough to warrant registration, but it seems ridiculous that so many companies are requiring suppliers to be registered. I think it has become an easy way for them to evaluate suppliers in accordance with ISO rather than doing something with actual merit. After all, we seem to agree that some registrars are better than others, but I have yet to find a customer that requires their supplier to be registered to a specific registrar or list of registrars.

The whole deal (registration) is pretty suspect.

Carl-

 

[Denis9001 - 2007]

I find this topic quite enlightening. Lines seem well drawn between the aye and nay camps. I'm interested in the nay arguments since I may come across them in the real world (objection handling planning).

Notwithstanding the thread topic, I'm confused because we have 5 "elements" here.

(1) QMS - all seem to agree on this being a benefit
(2) ISO 9001 - ditto with the proviso it is a basic framework
(3) 3rd. party audits - confused. The nayes have made few comments on this.
(4) registration/certification - OK the disputed one.
(5) certificate implications - the conclusion people draw from certification, whether right or wrong. - There seems to be broad agreement here that too much is often inferred or claimed.

I don't understand the objection the nayes have to (4) given they largely accept 1-3.

What's the problem with having a certificate for anything. It's just a form of record to evidence something. You could have an Auditors Report which would be almost the same thing. People and companies have numerous certificates: Medical, Education, Vehicle Inspection, Project Completion, Boy scouts badge whatever.

It's up to the customer what he does with his ISO9001 certificate. Put it on the wall or file it with his equipment calibration certificates. When I go to a restaurant I don't expect a health & safety inspection certificate to be on the wall (maybe would be nice though) or them to proudly proclaim that the food is safe. But I would like them to have a certificate from an independant and accredited source so I can satisfy myself that I'm (probably) not eating dogmeat. I know the cook will assure me otherwise and hey the steak tastes great. I could inspect the kitchen myself (assuming I'm qualified) or survey other diners. Bottom line is it would give me a bit more confidence in a world where there are so many scoundrels about.

Certificate cost is not a factor since fees are mostly for auditors time. So yeah, if I've paid the bucks for a 3rd party audit the cents for the certificate is worth it.

 

[Denis9001 - 2007]

As a newbie here can somebody give me the procedure to reply to posts with the original text snippet included.

 

[Carl Keller]

Denis,

The probelm is #3 is too subjective, rendering #4 worthless.

Additionally, the new slant is to provide services in #3 that have nothing to do with #4.

So the person who gave the restaraunt the certificate may have spent some time looking at a better way to arrange the tables to get more people in the restaraunt, rather than what the source was for the steak.

Carl-

 

[Jim Wynne]

As a newbie here can somebody give me the procedure to reply to posts with the original text snippet included.

Have a look here: This List of vB Codes and How to Use Them

 

[ralphsulser]

Would you spend you own money for registration?

It looks like the original question got off track into a discussion of only registration pros and cons. There is a difference when it's your money for the process.