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Would you spend your own $$$ for ISO 9001 registration

Would you spend your own money for ISO 9001 registration?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 27.5%
  • No

    Votes: 29 72.5%

  • Total voters
    40

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#71
Why did the horse cross the road?

Following the horse analogy...

1.Your dead horse is a horse.

2.You have a horse (but I won't tell you that your horse is under a tree with 3 mountain lions ready to pounce on it since it is outside the scope of my attestation)
 
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Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#73
As I re-examine my earlier comments, I detect my frustration with ANYONE, regular auditor or "value-added" auditor, coming in to a place of business, ostensibly on one mission (paid by the man hour), who casually shoots from the hip and says (by implication), "Oh by the way, although your operations meet the Standard I am paid to audit, I notice your business processes aren't up to industry benchmarks that I am aware of because I go into so many businesses and pay attention to what makes them profitable in addition to checking their adherence to the Standard. In fact, I am so knowledgeable about what makes a business more efficient and profitable that I can assess your business or any business as I casually pass from department to department and carry on my Standard audit in just a day or two on your premises. Also, you should know that if I didn't find any room for improvement, you overpaid for your audit because you didn't get any value added."

Does this view of mine mean NO auditor has the experience, skill, and ethics to spot potential opportunities for increased business efficiency as he goes through an audit? The ethics part means he can make a value judgment to avoid giving away another organization's hard won trade secrets. Even then, I would expect the opportunity for improvement in a non-Standard aspect of business to be recognized by a mere fluke during the short time an auditor is on the premises.

I know many wonderful, ethical accounting auditors from years of experience in dealing with financial matters of public and nonpublic companies. Every single one of my acquaintances agrees that a "Standard" audit of an organization would probably not catch fraud by a high ranking insider, nor would it pinpoint the subtle incompetencies which cause some organizations to fail. They all agree that detecting the fraud or incompetency requires a much deeper and more thorough analysis in a process known as "forensic accounting."

Perhaps I have become too cynical after exposure to so many major and minor frauds and incompetencies when looking at potential targets for my investment banking business. However experienced and cynical I may have been, however, I would never have been able to ferret out either fraud or pure incompetency within three days unless that was the ONLY thing I was looking for. With an entrenched system of incompetency, internal taboos constrain others in the organization to help hide the incompetency like some families help hide one member's alcoholism from the outsiders, making excuses for absences and minor car accidents. Fraud, by its very nature, is something hidden and secret from outsiders as well as most insiders.

Bottom line:
Let's agree the term "value added auditing" is merely a marketing ploy to set an auditing organization apart from its competitors to gain more business at a higher price. If an organization hires such an auditor and is willing to pay more, is that any different from the consumer who chooses to buy a brand name appliance at full retail from a flagship department store rather than at a discount from Best Buy?

I don't intend to belittle an auditor trying to push his company's marketing strategy, but that doesn't mean that I can't tell folks that the real difference between one audit and another doesn't hinge on the marketing strategy of the registrar, but on the experience and competence of the individual on-site auditor.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#74
Wes Bucey said:
Let's agree the term "value added auditing" is merely a marketing ploy to set an auditing organization apart from its competitors to gain more business at a higher price.
I obviously can not agree with that. While I suspect it might be true for some of my competitors, I know this is not the case with the organization I work for. Which, by the way, celebrates 141 years of existence in 2005. We have a value proposition for the audits we conduct, which goes beyond simple verification of a management system against a checklist. We are fully aware that this goes against some traditional expectations of how audits should be conducted, but it is our position.
 
C

Carl Keller

#75
Sidney,

Interesting position.

So you don't charge for the time it takes for this added "value proposition"? or did your company decide that it was "value added" for their pocketbook as well?

I guess as long as you are clear on your position and the company signs a contract, everyone is on the same page.

I would tell them to take a hike, but my company has only been in business for about 50 + years, so I guess you could consider us young and brash.

If I want a registrars opinion on something other than ISO, I'll ask for it.

Carl-
 
M

malicove

#76
Carl, Wes

QMS is almost everywhere in your company so auditor is very rare outside of the elements of the standards. We talk about good business practice not what other company is doing. And improvement is a part of the standard.

We already had less subjective standard ISO9001:1994 but it did not work.

When you hire consultant he is doing nothing but sharing information he has got when consulting other companies, his experience is from there so what is the difference.

I think that as usual “the truth is in the middle”. It depends on the company needs. I met both, companies so good organized that it was difficult to point out any valuable suggestion for improvement and (mostly) companies where “moving raw materials closer to the production floor” is something. Maciek
 
M

malicove

#77
I have forgotten one thing. There is a management principle: the most dangerous moment for the company existence is when it’s management thinks their company is the best. Maciek
 
C

Carl Keller

#78
There is another principle from WWII that says "loose lips sink ships".

If we allow auditors in to do "value added" audits, they may be passing along information that THEY think is not crossing the line, but WE may think differently.

Moving raw materials closer to the production floor sounds like a harmless improvement suggestion, but if my company is the only one doing it in my area, it is pretty darn important to me. A couple of those "harmless" suggestions could make our industry advantage a whole lot slimmer.

I happen to work in an industry where there are a dozen competitors within a 50 mile radius, so I would rather not take that chance, thank you very much.

Moving raw materials closer to the production floor (and similar "value added" suggestions) has NOTHING to do with complying with the ISO standard and SHOULD NOT even be mentioned by the auditor.

Carl-
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#79
Carl Keller said:
There is another principle from WWII that says "loose lips sink ships".

If we allow auditors in to do "value added" audits, they may be passing along information that THEY think is not crossing the line, but WE may think differently.

Moving raw materials closer to the production floor sounds like a harmless improvement suggestion, but if my company is the only one doing it in my area, it is pretty darn important to me. A couple of those "harmless" suggestions could make our industry advantage a whole lot slimmer.

I happen to work in an industry where there are a dozen competitors within a 50 mile radius, so I would rather not take that chance, thank you very much.

Moving raw materials closer to the production floor (and similar "value added" suggestions) has NOTHING to do with complying with the ISO standard and SHOULD NOT even be mentioned by the auditor.

Carl-
The example of putting the most-used raw materials nearest the production floor was chosen because it's so bloody obvious that it could never be considered proprietary information, no more than putting the toilets in enclosed areas might be considered a protected idea. If your competitors are that dumb, you probably don't have too much to worry about in that regard.
Look--every day in these forums people share forms, techniques and methods that could rightly be considered proprietary and no one thinks anything of it. It's hypocritical to acquiesce in this type of knowledge exchange and then say that a registrar's auditor's casual suggestions regarding patently non-proprietary subjects is unethical or somehow wrong.
Note: No auditor who hasn't been contracted to do consulting should ever spend billable time doing anything but auditing to the standard--no argument there. But there's a big difference between "value added" auditing--a marketing strategy wherein a registrar is contracted to provide advice--and an auditor who's smart (and ethical) enough to know intellectual property when he sees it and offers helpful advice that doesn't result in infringement or additional billing.
 
C

Carl Keller

#80
You make some very good points.

I just feel it is a slippery slope. I would rather not have a "value added" registrar auditing me, then cruising over to several of my competitors. It is lot safer knowing that they will not have to make the decision of what is, and is not "intellectual property" There are some great auditors out there, but I for one am not comfortable letting them decide what parts of my business they are willing to discuss and use as example with the next guy.

If they don't draw the line at where you stage raw material, just where DO they draw the line?

These forums are a whole different realm. The forum, and the people who visit it are not hired to perform a given task. We are all here of our own free will. Any confidentiality breach lies squarely with the individual entering the post. This is precisely why many companies are beginning to forbid blogs and industry related forum postings.

Carl-
 
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