You may or may not have the same person managing Operations and QA

E

EthanLoh

#11
I believe there is no prefect QMS existed in the world. It is about whether the QMS established is suitable to the company and its products or not. Each company must explored and decided for themselves which is the acceptable QMS.

I agreed with Ronen E that grey areas are the biggest challenge. That is why we QARA people are valuable to our industry :lol:. If there is no quality problem, very hard to justify our existence in the company.
 
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Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#12
Great. That means no checks and balances.
Essentially Production is concerned with maximising throughputs and minimising costs. Typically, the easiest/quickest way to do that is to cut quality corners.
Good quality costs money.
Bad quality also costs money.
The issue is that the latter has much less visibility even though in the long run it has heavier bearing on business success, and it takes some vision among non-QA management to realise that.



So no one is responsible.
Glad you know how we operate. We have checks and balances. But production doesn't cut corners. They work out acceptable resolutions to any issues. My inspectors aren't cops. They verify what production does. Usually they work together -- i.e.; a lot of "what do you think."
 

Jane's

Involved In Discussions
#13
Good for you Golfman. For all my years in the industry I haven't worked at a place like the one you describe. Are you hiring;)
 

hogheavenfarm

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
Customer requirements may forbid this scenario, our tier 2's generally do not allow operations to sign off on quality. That said, in our shop the employees are very conscious of their work and proud of it, so they will not shortcut something that scrimps on quality. That is rare however.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Moderator
#15
Quality is free. There is nothing like Good Quality / Bad Quality
It must be built in with optimization
Overdoing or under-doing will cost
We seem to have different definitions for Quality. That’s OK. There’s no one single “right” definition, and we should be fine as long as we know eachother’s definitions (and thus eachother’s intents when using the term).

I come from the school that says that “Quality” is whatever pleases the customer (the one who pays). All other things trickle down from there.

So,
Good Quality = Actions and resulting objects that lead to a high level of customer satisfaction.
Bad Quality = Actions and resulting objects that lead to a low level of customer satisfaction / lead to customer dissatisfaction.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Moderator
#16
We have checks and balances.
What are they, if there is only one entity?

They work out acceptable resolutions to any issues.
This sounds really nice, but I think in reality it means that the QA function has no real independence and thus no real authority. I.e. they never have the option of saying “Enough is enough. This is wrong in quality terms and it must be avoided", when red lines are crossed. Why? Because they are under an unwritten obligation to “work out acceptable resolutions to any issues”.

My inspectors aren't cops.
Oh, I see. Whenever someone disagrees with you and has the authority to overrule you, following predefined rules, they are “Cops”. And Cops are bad. :energy:
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Moderator
#17
Customer requirements may forbid this scenario, our tier 2's generally do not allow operations to sign off on quality. That said, in our shop the employees are very conscious of their work and proud of it, so they will not shortcut something that scrimps on quality. That is rare however.
I believe this is how it should be. Quality is everyone’s business - maybe first and foremost Production’s, but the function that oversees it and gives final approval should be independent, and have real power (to be cautiously used), nevertheless.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#18
What are they, if there is only one entity?



This sounds really nice, but I think in reality it means that the QA function has no real independence and thus no real authority. I.e. they never have the option of saying “Enough is enough. This is wrong in quality terms and it must be avoided”, when red lines are crossed. Why? Because they are under an unwritten obligation to “work out acceptable resolutions to any issues”.



Oh, I see. Whenever someone disagrees with you and has the authority to overrule you, following predefined rules, they are “Cops”. And Cops are bad. :energy:
Let's not over complicate it.

We have setup men. The set the job, check the samples and then give the samples to an inspector who verifies the sample. If something is close or questionable they'll work on it. If they can't make progress they'll see the engineering mgr or President for help. And It goes from there.

And yep. If any quality guru came to me with a "red line" they would be gone. There are always mitigating circumstances to every situation.

I'll put our defect record up against anyone.
 
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