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Z (Archived) Copyright - Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

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JaneB

#1
I'm having trouble agreeing it's better to do a large amount of cutting, copying & pasting of others' information and putting it in here.

Would it not be better (& overall more courteous) not to copy & paste information published by others, but instead to provide specific links to the real information on the site, along with an indication of what information you're providing links to?

NOTE: I have cut these posts off of the ISO 9000 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) thread because they are far afield of Sidney's post and as such deserve to be in their own thread.

Marc
 
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#2
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

I'm having trouble agreeing it's better to do a large amount of cutting, copying & pasting of others' information and putting it in here.

Would it not be better (& overall more courteous) not to copy & paste information published by others, but instead to provide specific links to the real information on the site, along with an indication of what information you're providing links to?
FYI:
One of the few things folks with high speed internet connections often ignore is the fact many others are saddled with slow dial up connections and small amounts of RAM, making it inconvenient and difficult to flip back and forth to new links.

A second situation which is often neglected is that a number of sites may have restricted access or are rigged to disallow "direct drilling" to the cited page, forcing non-registered visitors to register (free or fee makes no difference - still inconvenient.)

The third situation (the one which causes the most consternation to administrators and moderators of sites like the Cove) is the frequent revision of websites, causing the links to be dead and generate 404 errors ("page not found"), resulting in a flurry of emails, pms, and posts excoriating the original poster and moderators for allowing a dead link to inconvenience a visitor. As time progresses (the Cove is more than ten years old, after all), the likelihood of a link being dead increases exponentially.
 

Jim Wynne

Super Moderator
#3
Re: ISO 9000 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)

A second situation which is often neglected is that a number of sites may have restricted access or are rigged to disallow "direct drilling" to the cited page, forcing non-registered visitors to register (free or fee makes no difference - still inconvenient.)
:topic: For this issue, there's a solution that takes away some of the inconvenience. It's called Bugmenot, and it provides shared, preexisting logins for popular free sites that require them. There's information on how to use it at the linked site, and for Firefox users, there's an extension that allows you to use the function within the browser, rather than going to the Bugmenot site.

Edit: There's also a facility at the Bugmenot site for providing a free temporary e-mail address, in case the site that makes you register also requires e-mail confirmation and you don't want to use your real e-mail. Bugmenot will store any messages sent to the address for 24 hours, which is long enough to receive and reply to the confirmation request.
 
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JaneB

#4
Re: ISO 9000 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)

FYI:
One of the few things folks with high speed internet connections often ignore is the fact many others are saddled with slow dial up connections and small amounts of RAM, making it inconvenient and difficult to flip back and forth to new links.
Would that in Australia we DID have high speed net connections. What is called broadband here would be a laughing stock in the rest of the world. And yes, that makes things a pain at times, and yes, it means waiting for data to load. Well, if that's the situation, then that IS the situation.

Sorry all, but I have to disagree on this one. I do appreciate very much the desire to inform & to help, & I also can understand the desire to post what is clearly useful material in order to achieve that end. But copyright is still copyright.

I remain professionally uncomfortable with the wholesale cutting & pasting of what is really quite huge amounts of text from someone else's website and posting it in this one. OK, it's been referenced. But the fact remains that it is just grabbing OP's *copyright* material & posting it this site.

Or was permission to do so actually sought & given, as per ISO's very specific request: http://www.iso.org/iso/en/xsite/copyright.html
 
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#5
Re: ISO 9000 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)

Would that in Australia we DID have high speed net connections. What is called broadband here would be a laughing stock in the rest of the world. And yes, that makes things a pain at times, and yes, it means waiting for data to load. Well, if that's the situation, then that IS the situation.

Sorry all, but I have to disagree on this one. I do appreciate very much the desire to inform & to help, & I also can understand the desire to post what is clearly useful material in order to achieve that end. But copyright is still copyright.

I remain professionally uncomfortable with the wholesale cutting & pasting of what is really quite huge amounts of text from someone else's website and posting it in this one. OK, it's been referenced. But the fact remains that it is just grabbing OP's *copyright* material & posting it this site.

Or was permission to do so actually sought & given, as per ISO's very specific request: http://www.iso.org/iso/en/xsite/copyright.html
Some folks are aware I spend a LOT of time adjudicating "fair use" issues of copyrighted material here on the Cove and elsewhere.

In brief, a copyright holder normally only prevails in a court of law when challenging "fair use" by anyone when the copyright holder can demonstrate he/she/it is deprived of income because the ""fair use" claimant deprives the copyright holder of income by making the material content available.

In the instance where Sidney has extensively copied the material which is offered for free on the ISO website, ISO does not have a cause of action for money damages and the case would be dismissed on petition of the fair use claimant.

Here is an educational site which says much the same thing
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html

Note especially this statement:
The only guidance is provided by a set of fair use factors outlined in the copyright law. These factors are weighed in each case to determine whether a use qualifies as a fair use. For example, one important factor is whether your use will deprive the copyright owner of income. Unfortunately, weighing the fair use factors is often quite subjective. For this reason, the fair use road map is often tricky to navigate.
 
J

JaneB

#6
Re: ISO 9000 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)

Some folks are aware I spend a LOT of time adjudicating "fair use" issues of copyrighted material here on the Cove and elsewhere.
And some folks aren't. :tg:
Wes, I have a very high opinion of the help you provide and your stance on many topics. But while I looked at the reference you provide, I don't see that it supports this use. (And my question wasn't about whether this use would 'prevail in a court of law' or not. I'm talking about whether it's use is right, not whether lawyers would win the case.)

ISO is very specific on its Copyright topic that the material in ISO online is subject to the same law of copyright as their Standards & other publication. And states its position thus:

Any use of the material, including reproduction in whole or in part to another Internet site, requires permission in writing from ISO.
The Stanford link provided says fair use is only one of the factors to be taken into account - not the only factor. It also says this about 'fair use':

In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and "transformative" purpose such as to comment upon, criticize or parody a copyrighted work.
The use of the copied material pasted into the sticky thread isn't copied in to comment upon, or to illustrate a point of view or a position. It's apparently pasted in because having it there is seen as having a useful resource. IMO that isn't fair use, nor in line with the prohibition ISO makes. And presumably ignored their request to seek written permission first. Why?

I have a website for my own company. I make that information available for free. But I write everything that is on there. I'm quite aware that many people can & probably do take the information and use it to add to their store of knowledge. That's fine with me - plenty of people have helped me, and I'm happy to share it around. As a consultant, I get asked the same questions over and over too - just as people do in these Forums. Having some of that info on my website helps to save me from answering the same questions people ask, over and over (doesn't always stop them asking! :D.) But I didn't just go and find a whole lot of useful info somewhere else and and publish it on my own site.

And I also know that if I came across a site on the internet that had simply pinched a whole chunk of material from my website without so much as a 'this OK by you?' and then posted it in theirs , I'd be distinctly underwhelmed, peeved, and take it as a breach of copyright, quite regardless of whether it constituted a loss of income or not.

I don't see merit in the argument that ISO would lose the case if it went to court. That's not the whole issue, surely? Whether one should or has an ethical right to do this copying in this particular case is the issue at hand. And this particular one feels really wrong to me.

But in this one, your opinion differs widely from mine, & I respect that. Perhaps one of those 'must agree to disagree' situations.
 

Jim Wynne

Super Moderator
#7
Re: ISO 9000 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)

I don't see merit in the argument that ISO would lose the case if it went to court. That's not the whole issue, surely? Whether one should or has an ethical right to do this copying in this particular case is the issue at hand. And this particular one feels really wrong to me.
I'm seeing substantial merit in both points of view here, and I think Jane's reference to the clear ISO statement regarding copying is significant, regardless of its legal standing. At the same time, I'm not sure how ISO is being harmed by the copying in question, and surely there's a "greater good" consideration when it comes to such things. Nonetheless, I think we would be well served by having ISO's opinion on the matter, and honoring it as a matter of courtesy, if nothing else.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Re: ISO 9000 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)

Hello Fellow Covers,

Thank you Sidney, Randy, Wes, Jane and Jim for the excellent and very meaningful and respectful discussion about the use of (ISO site and/or other) information. A breath of fresh air compared to some other (heated) discussions we have on The Cove lately. I look forward to this type of discussion on The Cove.

Thanks Again!

Stijloor.
 
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Umang Vidyarthi

#9
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

I'm seeing substantial merit in both points of view here, and I think Jane's reference to the clear ISO statement regarding copying is significant, regardless of its legal standing. At the same time, I'm not sure how ISO is being harmed by the copying in question, and surely there's a "greater good" consideration when it comes to such things. Nonetheless, I think we would be well served by having ISO's opinion on the matter, and honoring it as a matter of courtesy, if nothing else.
Dear Jim,
I am in full agreement with you that Jane's stand is right from ethical stand point,legality not withstanding.At times,right has to be sacrificed for a greater cause,perticularly if the intrest of the owner is not harmed.
As for approaching the ISO for opinion will be like awaking a sleeping giant.
Their stand will predictably be against copying.Will everyone stop copying,
once so ruled?I have serious doubts.
Umang:agree1:
 
#10
Re: Cut and Paste Copyright Issues

One of the important concepts of FAIR USE is the user does NOT have to ask permission from the copyright holder.

Once permission is granted, the matter is removed from fair use consideration. If permission is asked and denied, the petitioner may have injured a major part of its potential defense - that of "honest belief it is engaging in fair use."

It may be impossible for me or most folks to condense the ins and outs of fair use in any reasonable form, short of conducting an entire course (some law schools have done this in the past) on the topic.

In lieu of that, most organizations (schools, media, textbook publishers, etc.) which employ fair use copying of copyrighted material issue guidelines to employees on what to avoid in such copying to prevent triggering a successful lawsuit from copyright holder.

No educational institution worth its salt would allow itself to be bullied by a threat of a lawsuit which the suer could not win. For profit media and textbook publishers might apply different yardsticks, choosing to factor in the possibility of adverse publicity as part of their guidelines.

Here in the Cove, we deny posting of any copyrighted material which is offered for sale by the copyright holder. Most other material may be allowed if it has a strong educational or reference use for Quality issues for our Cove readers. We have previously discussed issues which concern mere links to other material.

Like some of our Covers who have publicly or privately commented on the direction of this thread I am pleased to clear the air and give as clear a factual account of the issues as I can.
 
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